Better Listing Photography and Marketing With BoxBrownie

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Listen as Eric and Peter discuss the ins and outs of real estate marketing in the United States. As strategic relationship manager with BoxBrownie, Peter has a keen understanding of the connection between the real estate agent and their marketing efforts.

Learn more with BoxBrownie: https://www.boxbrownie.com/

TRANSCRIPTION

Eric Stegemann (00:03):

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Box Brownie segment the real estate podcast, where we interview the leaders in real estate and technology. Today, I have the pleasure of being joined by Peter Schravemade, which you'll understand more why I've pronounced it that way. And just the second, uh, Peter as title is the janitor slashes strategic relationship manager for a company called box brownie. And I've known him now for a number of years. Um, so you're going to find that this conversation is going to be very conversational, not so much a question and answer cause, uh, we've had a few beverages late at night and I'm probably going to be mentioning, uh, things that he's talked about, which hopefully he'll be willing to share everything that there is with us, that he shared with me at 11 o'clock at night after a couple of time. Peter, Welcome to the show.

Peter Schravemade (00:53):

What an introduction. Uh, I, I feel humbled, uh, not, not only in my Peter I'm from Australia and I don't know, I don't know why Americans saying that, but it is my fault.

Eric Stegemann (01:05):

Right? Peter

Peter Schravemade (01:08):

Peter. Yeah. Well, you know, it started because I think I have one of those names that sounds different in different languages or different accents. Right. And, um, I could never understand why people couldn't understand me when I introduced myself as Peter, but it'd be like, can you spell it? So, uh, you know, we went down the line of Peter and now I, what you would have heard. I just, by default, when I'm in America, introduce myself as Peter, Peter on Peter from box brownie and, and then somehow stuck people find that funny and they laugh at me say, uh, yes, thank you for the introduction. I am glad to be here.

Eric Stegemann (01:48):

Well, uh, so obviously he's in Australia as he mentioned, and it's about 4:00 AM there. So we definitely thank him for joining us early. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what box brownie is?

Peter Schravemade (02:00):

Yeah, well, it's a website is the easiest, easiest way to go with that. Now the box brownie itself was a camera. It was a lockout, a box shaped camera came out in 1,901, um, moms and dads could buy it. And the, the slogan that, uh, Kodak Eastman used way back then was you take the photo. We do the rest. And in, in some kind of weed way, we've continued on with that tradition. So we're website that you can go to, to upload photos for whatever edit you may need. Um, at the outset that's, you know, that starts with improving those rubbish photos that you've ever on his scene on the MLS, uh, where someone's taken it, you know, with a smartphone, we can enhance those and all the way through to things like things like staging. Um, but even as we mentioned, just prior to hitting record on the podcast, we do just about anything, portrait photography, Twilight conversions, we take cars out of dry and things like that. So, um, we're in image, editing companies, the, the basis of what we,

Eric Stegemann (03:00):

And so, and by the way, if you have not checked out what they do, please go to box brownie.com and you'll see some of the examples of their work and all the different facets of what they do. I think we only mentioned here a few different types of photography and we'll get into more, uh, in a second, but the, the work that they do and what they're able to achieve, uh, is just quite amazing. So, um, tell us, uh, about the product and by the way, you have to go to their website, if you haven't been and look at their pricing, because I think you'll be shocked by how low cost, but high quality, what they're able to provide is, so can you tell us a little bit about how that works and how you're able to do it for that kind of pricing?

Peter Schravemade (03:46):

Yeah, well, uh, I mean, effectively the edits that we do, um, you know, we, we, I suppose box branding.com is not specific to real estate. We also operate in, in automotive building and construction, online fashion and retail. Um, so the, the groundbreaking thing that we did was not a lot to do with real estate photography, except that the products actually work in a brokerage or an agency. Um, the, the, the reality of what we did is we introduced the client, which, you know, could be you, for example, we introduced you to a graphic designer or editor of some kind that was able to deliver a product, um, within agreed expectations. So you will come in expecting, I want my daytime photo turned to Twilight for $4. Uh, you will upload that photo that will go to an editor. The editor will deliver that within a guaranteed timeframe.

Peter Schravemade (04:40):

So, you know, that, that transaction is, um, I suppose priceless if you're an agent because, um, a lot agents are always on deadlines. We know about them. Um, we, we think our deadlines are quite quick, but even so, um, there's so much pressure on the time process, uh, with an agent that, you know, we, we understand that in the, the time, um, that that was a driving force, I suppose, to make the products what they are. So, you know, it's a really simple transaction that takes place, and it doesn't necessarily need to be related to property, but, um, you know, our products inherently are, um, my background is in real estate has been for the better part of will getting on 24 years now, I've been in the industry. So, um, you know, that was a natural movement for us is to go into those, into those products. And it has worked, um, the acceptance of not just, uh, in, in America and North America at large, but globally, this is a product that, that works quite well. Uh, we, we know that, um, just because of the growth rates

Eric Stegemann (05:50):

And that's, uh, it's, it is something amazing to see how fast they've come onto the market. So obviously box is, uh, can be from over in Australia. Um, what made you and your team wake up one day and say, Hey, the United States is a, is a market that we should jump into full force.

Peter Schravemade (06:09):

Well, that's an interesting question, actually. That's a good question. Um, so we were already doing this in Australia and it was bubbling along what we thought quite nicely. Uh, we thought our growth rates back in, in those, um, in those days were excellent. And those days, just to put a timeframe on it that would have been sort of between, uh, July, 2016 and the end of the year. And it was a, it was around about the end of the year. It was December from memory, um, 2016 that I was sitting in a, in an office, which is like a we're in an old box kind of office at that stage. And we had decided that the Americans spoke English as well, and that maybe it's worth putting a social media pie stat. Um, we were even, I can remember we were actually drinking Crier at the time cause that's what we thought, Mexicans strike.

Peter Schravemade (07:01):

Um, and, and we, yeah, we were having creditors and we decided we'd put an ad advert out and that advert, um, we'd left. I think the discussion happened in the middle of your Thanksgiving period, and then Christmas hits straight after. So we left that to sort of mid-January and we unleashed that and, and then all sorts of things started happening. Um, we were picked up by him and, um, was probably the biggest one, but, you know, even just the, the variability of the advert that went out was insane. It really convinced us that we should start looking at markets other than Australia, Australia, New Zealand, I think with the two that were in. Um, and now we're in 96 countries, so that's kind of moved forward. We're multilingual, um, we're in, uh, Spanish, French, um, Korean, Japanese, we're about to go into Italian and German. Um, Portuguese was just launched the other day, so we're slowly moving into other markets. Um, but yeah, America was definitely the first and, um, we, we would quite humbled at how we were embraced by America in general. It, it was, um, it was, it was definitely a humbling experience.

Eric Stegemann (08:15):

So one of the things that I know you and I have talked about though, about being here in the States, uh, is how bad you think the average photography of real estate listings is. So it's so bad versus other countries, do you think,

Peter Schravemade (08:32):

Well, let's, let's just go not bad. Um, you have the potential to deliver to world-class standards. The best property marketing that we see is out of Scandinavia, the Scandinavian regions, and also out of the Australia, New Zealand regions. We think that they lead the world as far as what they're delivering. Um, so when I, when I come to bed, I, I just think, um, the way I would put it is that there is a lack of focus on the actual marketing of the home itself. Um, and let me, let me put a few things in perspective that are different about America compared to global, um, number one, your E-Pro, which is your training manual by the NAR that does not actually talk about how you market a house. Um, it's just an absent it's, it's not in there, um, yet real estate, one Oh one in, in those other nations, definitely in the UK and the EU actually talk about, um, you know, okay, so you want to be real estate agents let's start the very basis is starting with the house.

Peter Schravemade (09:40):

When you think about our product to, um, you know, and you're an agent, the first thing that you are more than likely going to have to do is to at some point, um, you know, find a product, which is, which is a house that you have listed and market that to a target audience. But I think, um, there seems to have been a, a real, um, missing piece there because you have a dual marketing process. I think the whole reason that this comes about, and I'm kind of answering the question first is that you have a Juul listing scenario where there's a marketing agent and a purchasing agent, and most American real estate agents enter as a purchasing agent that they're not even showing how to market a home to start off with us, they're showing how to go and get leads for which they will sell properties.

Peter Schravemade (10:30):

I'm now coming back to your original question is why do I think American marketing is so poor? It just is, um, we have stats coming up and this, this is kind of preempting something we have releasing. We're actually doing analysis on all of your forums to detect, um, what level of photography we believe is professional. Um, and we believe that it's going to come in quite low, like to the extent under 5%, um, watch this space. Um, let, let me rephrase that. Um, everyone thinks they're using a professional photographer, but w when the photos are taken internally, you can't see outside the windows, which is a standard of professional photography. And we think, you know, there is no real, um, there is no real definition of what a professional photographer is. It could be my best friend's sister's uncle's dog's mother has a Nikon camera and therefore they are shooting.

Peter Schravemade (11:22):

So we've really attacked that space. Um, then, then you go down the list of things required. We'll copy. I'm assuming that all agents have put copy on, but if you haven't, it's something that purchases want a floor plans, less than 5% of MLS listings have floor plans, your own national association of realtors, buyer, and home seller, generational trends say that 50% of purchases want one yet only 5% of listings have it. Um, and then you compare that also with Thailand where the takeout rate of floor plans, a third world country is 74%, and you've got HIPAA America sitting here at 5%. It's a damning indictment on the industry. Um, you go to virtual tours, we believe the take up rate of virtual tours in the U S even now is still under 5%, even in the pandemic period yet. Um, you know, you have your purchases saying 50% of purchases saying that they want one.

Peter Schravemade (12:15):

Um, ironically, the thing that purchases want the least, which is video is, is actually done quite well. So, um, you know, there are the five elements that we see that purchases a screaming for. Um, four of those five are done very, very poorly when you compare them with international, um, standards and, and to come back to it. I think it is because there is a July listing process. Not many Americans are aware that that that process is only North America. It's only Canada and the States. It doesn't exist anywhere else. So there's a greater emphasis on agents elsewhere to actually describe the product that they're selling, which is the whole, that's the whole purchase. You know, the whole idea of the, the, um, the, the sale is to actually, you've got a product that you need to move to potential target audience. How do want to describe that product? So, um, you know, to come back to it, it's not so much that your marketing is bad. You just not doing the required elements that we know your purchases are asking for. I hope that makes sense. That's a long way about answering that question.

Eric Stegemann (13:21):

No, I, and I think it perfectly aligns with other things that we've heard. So, um, a lot of our, uh, podcasts we've had the opportunity to interview people in international real estate, or that at least touch international real estate. So we interviewed folks from recipe, which is a photo, um, uh, image, uh, service that looks at the photo and tells you what's in it. And we talk to, so they're in Spain and we talked to the folks that ad Phoenix and they're in Sweden and a few other folks that are in international real estate. And there's a recurring theme amongst all of the people that I've had the opportunity to interview, uh, when they look at the United States, from the lens of being in another country at how we handle real estate. And that is because we have buyers, agents and sellers agents, which you alluded to. Um, and because of that process, that we're more focused on lead gen than necessarily selling the property, whereas in almost all other countries, there's no buyer's agent. And so everybody is only focused on doing the absolute best to get the listing and then to sell the listing, because it may not be exclusive. They may have another, uh, listing agent that might be representing the property, right?

Peter Schravemade (14:35):

Yeah, that's right. And in line with that, you know, like, let's go, you're familiar with the rebar camp scenario where you turn up and, um, you know, if you, if your listeners, aren't the way it works is it's like a pick your own path conference where you can put, um, you know, I guess ideas on a white board, people vote for those ideas and it dictates the sessions that will happen today. Generally you'll have a bunch of industry experts and they will talk about what goes on and you know, why, um, I'm talking about rebar camps is that I've been to a number of them in the U S and invariably, there ends up this term on the board that is highly voted for called property marketing. Now in any other country, property marketing means how you actually go about marketing that house. Um, in all of those sessions at the rebar camps turn into what am I doing to get lead gen, um, you know, how am I just sold brushes?

Peter Schravemade (15:33):

Uh, do I have closing gifts, all of those things that actually aren't essential to the sale of the property. Yes, they are important to do for you yourself, your brand lead generation, but they all come under lead generation. You know, that's, that's called lead generation marketing. And whether that lead is you're looking at a purchase or coming in, or you will, you're actually trying to get leads for, um, you know, people wanting to sell a house. That's two different ball games. There doesn't appear to be a general term that describes the marketing that we do to sell a property. Um, it's just this big, dirty word that sits out there. And, you know, I've got my photos taken. I've used. What I think is a professional photographer. I've written some copy of, put it on the MLS. This house needs to sell. It's like, it sounds like, uh, you know, it sounds like a wearing a life being at shit to a funeral.

Peter Schravemade (16:25):

It, it sounds as though we've hitched the, the cart before the horse. I'm not a, you know, I, I think if there was not one thing that I would actually recommend agents do when they get into the industry is investigate how to actually go about selling that property, you know, different ways to do it, things that are going to make your prices faster and the consistency, because all of those other things in my experience has been an agent fall into place. Um, you know, having never operated in America I'll use that as a disclaimer, but those other things fall into place. Once you get your nuts and bolts in a row, are your ducks in a row? As far as the property marketing is concerned, it takes a large piece of that off your plate.

Eric Stegemann (17:08):

And you know what you're saying, aligns to something I've said for 20 years in this industry, which is that the, uh, the process for getting a license in the United States is to pass a test. And so much of the American education system is about passing tests rather than actually consuming the knowledge you need to be successful and the same dose for most real estate education, uh, and getting a real estate license. They're not at all focused on how do I market, or how do I do a great job for my client? They're focused on the laws and what you can and can't do here and there and how you renew your license, et cetera. And then the problem with that is that that's fine. If the state is going to mandate that that's what you need to have a real estate license, but then the next step is that most brokerages, because there's almost no cost to them to have that person licensed at the company, they'll take anybody that can fog a mirror.

Eric Stegemann (18:11):

And then you've just got them sitting there. And the expectation by the brokerage is the person will work out if they're meant to, but there's not mentoring that goes in there and says, okay, well, here's how you do this. Or an apprenticeship. That's so big in other countries. And very little apprenticeship takes place in the United States. You just get thrown to the wolves. And I think that some people just become successful with it. And particularly when it comes to marketing, they just do whatever is going to get them the listing or promise whatever is going to get them the listing. And then, you know, they're not worried about making it better or selling a listing faster, and if they lose the listing, so be it, they just go onto the next one, right?

Peter Schravemade (18:54):

Yeah, that's right. And, you know, in line with that, I think, um, what I have learned from the American cause this, this all sounds very critical and there are things that you guys do that are so much better than we do in Australia. Like how you handle a lead, for example, so much better than, than the way we do it over here. So it's