Ep182 Science Based Training

Creating Great Grooming Dogs

This week we're talking about science-based training. What does that mean? Why is there a controversy and what do you need to know? You'll get my take on that this week.

CreatingGreatGroomingDogs.com

Ep182 What Does Science Based Dog Training Mean

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[00:00:00] Chrissy: . Episode 180 2 of the show this week we're talking about science-based training. What does that mean? Why is there a controversy and what do you need to know?

[00:00:09] You'll get my take on that this week. This is the Creating Great Grooming Dog Show. I'm Chrissy Neumyer Smith. I'm a certified professional groomer, a certified behavior consultant for Canines, a certified professional dog trainer, the owner of Happy Critters in Nashua, New Hampshire, and an instructor at Whole Pet Grooming Academy. And this, my friends and colleagues, is the show we're grooming and training meet.

[00:00:31] Science-based dog training. So there's a big debate out there because there are two warring factions in the dog training world. And each of them thinks that they're doing science-based dog training. And I'm gonna tell you, my humble opinion is that they are both correct. They both are.

[00:00:50] But it has become this marketing tool. So I want you to thoroughly understand it. I want you to understand why it's a term that's being used and what it really means. I will say that I am definitely further on one side of that debate. If you are kind of new to the show, you might not know, but there are, , balanced trainers, trainers who feel that rewards and punishments as long as it, we get the job done and safely, rewards and punishments are all fair game.

[00:01:20] And then there are the positive reinforcement trainers who think that punishments should be avoided. I'm far more leaning toward that side. But that doesn't mean that I'm not open-minded. , in fact, I am what's called a crossover trainer, which means that I started off with a lot of punishment based kind of training, and then over time started incorporating more positive reinforcement type training.

[00:01:44] So I've done both, and I can tell you that. There are plenty of wonderful caring dog trainers out there working in both angles. All right, so first of all, this is a safe space. My show is always gonna be a safe space. I'm not here to judge anybody, [00:02:00] but I wanna present you with some information. Now, when I say that I am far more leaning toward positive reinforcement, , a lot of the positive reinforcement camp, talks a lot about science-based dog training.

[00:02:13] And they do use a lot of science, but so does the balance trainer camp also. So the science part comes in because the purpose of us doing our training is to try to figure out, why the dog is having a problem. The why. Okay. This is where we break away from. , he does something and I just leash. Correct.

[00:02:38] A good trainer is not doing that. They don't just go. I don't know. He did something. So I'm just gonna do a leash correction and a stern no. , the science-based part is about separating ourselves from the emotions of punishments and rewards, separating ourselves from the emotions of all of that, and instead thinking about what do we see with this dog?

[00:03:00] Why is this dog behaving this way? Why is this happening? What can we do to help this dog be better? Now, that's a different point of view than what many of us were taught long ago when I first started. Back in the eighties, it was choke collars and prong collars. I was lucky enough to be around a bunch of adults cuz I was 14, um, to be around a bunch of adults who were super into continuing ed.

[00:03:27] So even though we were using a lot of those things, there was always this open-mindedness about like, woo, how did they do that? Wow, that's neat. How will that work? Can we try that too? But it's not just about taking every idea that comes down the pike, okay? There are some crazy ideas out there.

[00:03:44] There's some really outdated stuff. , but that doesn't mean that any one group of dog trainers has cornered the market on science-based dog training, okay? It's really important for us all to understand that if [00:04:00] someone does something that's a punish, And they do it once and the dog never does that again.

[00:04:06] They have used science-based dog training. It might not be the way I would have done it, or maybe not the way that you would have done it, but it is scientifically sound. , so we need to break away from the idea that one is right and one is wrong. That's really important. As a crossover trainer, I think it's really important and I'd like to see more crossover groomers.

[00:04:31] Let's make that a term. I'm a crossover groomer because many of us as groomers, and I think if you're not a groomer, you might not know this. Many of us as groomers, we're always taught. You just cannot let him take charge. Things like that, that really don't speak to what the issue is. We need to help these dogs feel more comfortable, calm, comfortable, and cooperative.

[00:04:53] You've heard it many, many times here, so when we talk. Science-based dog training. There are a couple of different lenses we can use now. One of those, and one that I use a lot is, , least intrusive, minimally aversive, dog training circles. That's something that we often sign off on as part of our codes of conduct for the Association of Professional Dog Trainers, the certification council.

[00:05:20] Professional dog trainers in the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants. So those three big groups will often ask us like, do you use least intrusive minimally aversive? Are you following the humane hierarchy? Which is, I know it sounds super complicated, but what it is, is what it is, is.

[00:05:42] The purpose of these is to have a roadmap when faced with a behavior that we would like to change or that we do not want. We first have to think about, , the dog's comfort. We have to think about why the dog is doing it, and this is a [00:06:00] roadmap for us to follow so that we're doing the most gentle version.

[00:06:05] Now, why is gentle important? So let's say we have a dog on the grooming. And we're grooming along and we get up near his ear and he turns around and growls. And we assume, what if we assume that this dog just means to harm us, or he's being stubborn, that's a story that we tell ourselves, stubborn, that he's spoiled.

[00:06:30] That's another air quote. Spoiled. , what if we start making assumptions that this dog is just trying to. Take charge doesn't respect us when actually this dog has an injury. Well, I think I would know if a dog was sore. Not really. So there are times where we are responding to a dog's behavior, assuming making some assumptions about their motivation.

[00:06:57] And to break away from that is where we start talking about science-based dog training to break away from our assumptions to back. Boo boo boo. Back up the bus and think about, okay, why might that dog be responding that way? Now, let's say you're brushing an ear and you're like, I don't know. His ear looked fine, but maybe he has a neck problem.

[00:07:20] Maybe you could do some real damage by continuing. Maybe we need to stop, pause. Think it through and listen, when this dog is saying, I'm uncomfortable with that, especially if it's a dog who normally is comfortable with that, and we see that a lot. So humane hierarchy starts off with when we're faced with a behavior problem that we are concerned about, that we don't want to have happen again.

[00:07:48] Our first thought should be, is there a medical reason, a physical reason, like what is going on in this dog's? So that's a really big one that I think most of us [00:08:00] don't do. I say US cuz I've been there. I mean I do it now, but, but many of us don't do that first and we have to think about the medical reason.

[00:08:10] No, that does not mean, and I know there's someone out there going, but I'm like, that does not mean that a dog who's sore is allowed to bite people. Okay. That's not the purpose here. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, is that we need to figure out the reason so that we can fix the cause so that we can get in there and really find out what is going on.

[00:08:34] Frankly, if a dog is sore, I want to be gentle with. I want to help them feel more comfortable. And a dog who's sore, while they shouldn't turn around and try to bite us, I can understand why they might have that knee jerk reaction if something suddenly hurts or something twists. You know, like there are times where a dog's just like ow it looks like a bite. It looks like an air snap, and we need to be aware of that. We also need to help dogs feel comfortable with us, even if something does hurt. Okay? It's not okay for your dog to just go after you because things hurt. It's important for them to trust us to know that if I signal that something's uncomfortable, this human listens and will try to find out what's wrong.

[00:09:21] That's really, I. And, it's one of the first parts of the humane hierarchy, just looking at what is the problem and is the right physical reason. A lot of the dogs that we groom have discomfort. They are uncomfortable. They have hip problems, they have tooth problems, they have ear problems, they have skin conditions.

[00:09:42] They have, , toenails that are super huge and long and it's been, putting pressure on their feet and on their legs. They're all sorts of reasons why a dog could be sore. I'm not saying that that's the only cause for behavior problems that would, that would not be true, but we need [00:10:00] to rule those out and we need to really think.

[00:10:02] And along with physical issues like medical issues, we also need to think about what kind of dog is this? Are we expecting a terrier to just kick back and relax or maybe hide if he's scared? Terriers aren't likely to get scared. We've been breeding them to just jump into fight mode, the way to keep a terrier calm is to not let them get into fight mode.

[00:10:25] So this is part of us taking a little bit more of a. Pausing and thinking about why is this dog behaving this way? Why? , the things about this dog's body is this dog an adolescent, and we're expecting it to act like an adult, which is common, all right? That happens a lot. We go through the puppy phase and they're doing really, really well as a puppy, and then they hit seven or eight months old and we're like, Hey, why are you acting like this?

[00:10:52] But it's seven or eight months old. They have less patience than they did when they were a puppy. They're still little. They still need lots and lots of patience, lots of little break. And we expect them to act like adults. So we're in conflict with them, and it's something that we could prevented if we're like, Hmm, okay, that's a physical reason.

[00:11:13] Right? He's just darn young. He's not an adult yet, not gonna be able to act like an adult. , 14 year old Chrissy was not the same as this Chrissy, just think about your own self, like, oh yeah. Teenagers are impulsive, usually frustra. and our adolescent dogs are too. So sometimes we need to look at the dog's age, the dogs breed.

[00:11:33] There are so many things to consider. That's part of scientific dog training. The science of dog training. It's not about letting go of all of our emotions. It's about backing up and really taking a closer look. Why is this dog behaving this way and what can we do about it? I want you to think about that one first.

[00:11:57] That's the first one. And on the humane hierarchy, [00:12:00] it is least intrusive minimally aversive, it's a very dog friendly way to approach a behavior problem. Why is he being like this? And to step back from, from some of our stories, you know, well, he's just bossy. , that's a weird story that I think we've all told ourselves at some.

[00:12:17] Very rarely do I find a dog who's bossy. So I want you to think about the, the physical health of the dog, the physical needs of the dog, other things that could be happening. And this dog's breed and this dog's age, , is this a dog who's always been good for grooming, but now he's nine and today's the day he doesn't wanna stand up.

[00:12:36] Maybe this is the first time that he's starting to have some trouble with his hip. These are things that we need to think about, and that's part of science-based dog training. To look at the big picture. Let's get away from just responding with punishments or reinforcements. We can't just throw a cookie at everything either anymore than we can just leash correct and say no.

[00:12:58] It's more about a step back, take a beat and think about why the dog might be doing this, because then we can solve the problem or work on the problem. Not every problem can be solved. If a dog is really sore. Sometimes that's just gonna be the way it is. But for us to step back and think about why is this dog behaving this way and let go of some of our emotions about it, let go of some of our ideas.

[00:13:25] If you are enjoying this show, please remember to tell everybody, you know, subscribe or follow, and I wanna remind you that it is available as a podcast and it is also available on YouTube.

[00:13:37] You can watch them as videos and you can watch or listen at creating great grooming dogs.com.

[00:13:44] So as we talk about science-based dog training and separating yourself from some of the knee jerk reactions that we have, , one of the things I wanna point out also is that there's a process and not everyone agrees with that process. Okay? [00:14:00] But I'm gonna present the process that I use. All right, so full disclosure, I'm a positive reinforcement trainer and I'm gonna follow least intrusive minimally aversive, and I'm gonna follow the humane hierarchy because that's what I am firmly believing in.

[00:14:16] But, those are still hotly debated, even amongst trainers who use those because these steps can be kind of gray areas. But I wanna dress here. When we are talking about dog grooming, I do dog training. I do lots of dog training, but the grooming process is a different angle of dog training.

[00:14:36] If I were working on dogs, , barking at the front window, I might use a wider variety of tools than I do on the grooming table. Dogs, , during grooming have difficulty with grooming because they find it unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. And I'm gonna drill that into your head. Dogs have trouble with dog grooming because they find it unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary.

[00:15:03] So what does that mean for us? It means that if we want a dog to be better for groom. We are not likely to get good results if we incorporate more unpleasant, uncomfortable, and scary to try to fix a dog who is finding it unpleasant, uncomfortable, and scary. , that, that, that kind of makes us all feel icky the first time we hear it, doesn't it like, oh, oh, wait a minute.

[00:15:31] Am I adding more unpleasantness? No. Unpleasant. As an example of unpleasant. Even the dog who's super, super. Is finding it unpleasant that they can't just go off and play. That's why they're wiggly. That's why they're a jumbled up, wiggly, goofball mess, and they're, we're having trouble holding them still and trying, having trouble getting the grooming done safely because they're super, super silly.

[00:15:53] That dog is finding it unpleasant because they can't just go off and play. That's a dog with a problem being [00:16:00] impulsive and silly and active and maybe overwhelmed with the distraction level. But it's still unpleasant and a lot of dogs find grooming uncomfortable, and then a lot of dogs find it scary, and it could be a combination of all of three of those things.

[00:16:17] Now let's talk for a moment about punishment and reinforcement. So punishments are things that decrease or end behavior, decrease or end. A punishment isn't necessarily a bad thing. We get, we get a feeling of icky, right? We're like, Ooh, but a punishment works because the dog thinks it's unpleasant, uncomfortable, or scary, and does not want to have that thing happen again.

[00:16:47] They choose to like, Ooh, don't want that to happen again. I don't want that outcome again, so maybe I won't do that thing. Okay. They're unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary. That does not mean they're mean. All right. And I really wanna make that clear in the grooming setting. I'm calling this this line here because, We can't teach dogs to calm, comfortable, and cooperative on the grooming table and start thinking the grooming table is safe.

[00:17:16] If we keep incorporating more and more unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary on top of a situation that's unpleasant, uncomfortable, and or scary, do you see how it starts to build up? And it just doesn't make sense in this particular realm? Okay, not a judgment call about those of you who are using punishment, you know, like your dog.

[00:17:38] Does something at home. You know what? We can talk about that another time. But this is all about grooming. This is about the grooming process. Cooperative care. Can I touch your foot? Even if you're injured, cooperative care, I need this dog to trust that they're safe with me. Okay, so reinforcement is when we have a behavior that [00:18:00] we want to maintain or increase.

[00:18:03] Maintain, or increase is reinforcement. These terms get used all the time in weird ways. Okay, so this is, this is science-based dog training. Reinforcement is when the behavior maintains or increases, not necessarily that you did something really nice. Okay? Some of the things that we do as groomers, some of the things that we do when we're trying to get a dog to knock it off, and we're holding that foot more and we're telling him no, and that dog is wiggling more and wiggling more.

[00:18:33] Actually, what did it do? Maintained or increased the very behavior we wanted to stop right step back from our emotions and let's look at the result. And when we're doing reinforcement or punishment, we need to think about what is my theory about what's going on and what's my best guest about how this dog is going to respond to what I do next?

[00:19:01] Okay, now you might have heard a positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement. Positive punishment. Negative punishment. So let's dig into that. Positive and negative. Okay. Again, this is a spot where we step back from our emotions. It does not mean lovey dovey or mean. Positive means something added.

[00:19:23] Negative means something subtracted. So if I'm using positive reinforcement, it means I saw a behavior. That I want to maintain or increase and I'm going to add something. So when we add something to maintain or increase the behavior, it's probably something pleasant, maybe tasty, something the dog will like.

[00:19:44] That would be positive reinforcement based training, if and only if actually maintains or increases the behavior. That's the part that I think a lot of us have trouble. Lot of trainers have trouble with that too when we're [00:20:00] first wrapping our heads around this whole idea. So let me give you an example.

[00:20:05] If I see you do something, like, let's say right now you're listening to this podcast and maybe I saw you just write down a couple of notes and I'm thinking, wow, that's great. I want them to do that some more. If I hand you a piece of licorice, did I just, I did positive cause I handed you something. Was that positive reinforcement because you like licorice and will work for licorice?

[00:20:30] Or did I just hand you something that you thought was yucky? Like, Ew, why would she hand me licorice? Are you likely to do the thing again or not? Could I have accidentally used positive punishment? Here's some licorice. I'm not gonna do that again. She's handed me this gunk. Ooh. Um. Licorice is often my example because I think it's a love-hate thing.

[00:20:54] People either love licorice or hate licorice, and there's not much in between. So think about our best idea of what a dog likes and dislikes, why a dog does the things they do, and that's where science-based training comes in. . There are lots of other versions of science-based dog training. There's a lot more to it, right?

[00:21:15] Not everything is, punishments and reinforcements. That's just opera conditioning. That's not even getting into classical conditioning. So there are a lot of things that I think many, many trainers can agree on, and one of those things is, why is the dog doing it? Let's take a look at why. Let's see if we can teach 'em to do something.

[00:21:35] Even if they use methods that are very different than mine. The fact is, , if we all look at the same dog doing the same behavior, we will all come up with slightly different variations of what we think we should do. And some of them will work well, some of them might not, but it doesn't mean that anybody is right or wrong.

[00:21:56] We'll just have to see what happens. . But I think. [00:22:00] Trying to get away from the emotion and really take a look and see why a dog is doing so. Why, , applied behavior analysis. The functional behavior assessment is all about finding those chains. What happens before the behavior, what the behavior is and what happens after.

[00:22:17] Okay. That's a functional behavior assessment. I know now I'm getting a little bit techy, little bit too techy. Chrissy, back it off. But those are two. Find out why a dog is behaving that way. So if we look at something like least intrusive, minimally avers, The humane hierarchy and our first thought and the humane hierarchy is not ad treats.

[00:22:39] It's not Give them a stern. No. The first thought following the humane hierarchy is, is there something going on with this dog and in grooming? I think that's the first thing we should talk about. Is there a physical reason? Dog grooming is different than the dog who's barking at the window or the dog who pulls on.

[00:23:00] Dog grooming is we are up there up against their body, touching them all over doing things that maybe they have a history of being frightened of. It's really important in dog grooming for us to first think, is there a physical problem? If you wanna know more about how to work with me, you can find out more at creating great grooming dogs.com.

[00:23:23] I do work for the whole Pet Grooming Academy. That's whole pet nh.com, where I teach the Master Groomer Behavior Specialist Diploma Program. You can also, if you're interested in that program, master groomer, behavior specialist.com.