FS 72 Working as an Internal Facilitator with Cath Brooks from the Environment Agency

Facilitation Stories

In this episode Helene talks to Cath about her role as Senior Engagement Advisor and internal facilitator with the Environment Agency (EA)

Cath tells Helene a bit about the EA and the type of work they do. She explains how her role as Engagement Advisor includes facilitation and also how she works an an independent internal facilitator for other projects withing the EA.

Cath gives some examples of what she really enjoys about her role as a faciliator including working with the public on a climate adaptation project and working alongside external independent facilitators that the EA also use. She explains that external faciliatators are often used when more complex conversations need to be had, or where there has been a breakdown of trust and someone independent is needed.

She shares some insights as to how the internal facilitators network of aroudn 200 facilitators was set up and how she balances her work as Senior Engagement Advisor and facilitator.

She tells Helene about a role play technique that really made a difference and about how asking good questions are crucial to her work as a faciliator.

Cath also talks about how she keeps her faciliation skills up including attending the IAF England and Wales conferences, and local IAF meetups and EA facilitator learning days. She also shares some advice for other internal facilitators.

A full transcript is below.

Today's Guest

Environment Agency - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

[e-mail]

To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter

Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/

And to email us: [e-mail]

IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales

The Facilitation Stories Team

Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/

Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/

Transcript

H.J

Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helen Jewell, and my guest today is Cath Brooks, senior engagement advisor with the Environment Agency. Welcome, Cath

C.B

Hi, yeah. Hi. How are you doing? Alright?

H.J

I'm good. How are you?

C.B

Yeah, good. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm Looking forward to it.

H.J

It's really good to have you on the podcast. Okay, so I have a whole load of questions to ask you, starting with the Environment Agency. I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about what the Environment Agency does and what your role is?

C.B

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I hope that it'll inspire people. I've worked at the Environment Agency for almost 20 years, and I still absolutely love it. It's a great organisation. So we're a public sector organisation, and we aim, quite simply, to protect and improve the environment. We employ about 12,000 people, and some people work nationally across England, and then some people work in area offices. We've got 14 different area offices across England, so you either work on national issues or you work on local issues in one of our area offices. And I guess to create places for people and wildlife, we work on quite a lot of topics that people are deeply concerned about, and finding ways forward can be difficult on some of the issues, people have strong opinions about the environment and how we should be managing the environment quite rightly. So Facilitation skills are really important in that context, with some of the really difficult issues that we're managing. So some of those topics are things like managing major industry, making sure they're not polluting the environment, and waste, dealing with contaminated land, making sure water quality of our rivers and we've got enough water so water resources as well, working on fisheries, conservation and ecology, and my area that I work on is management of flood risk. So those sorts of issues are really interesting, and people have strong opinions about how we should be managing those issues. So there can be quite a lot of conflict, I guess, which is why facilitation is so important.

H.J

And so then, obviously that's quite a broad even under the umbrella of the environment, that's quite a broad range of different areas, and in your particular area then, in your role as senior engagement advisor, what does that actually involve? Sort of before, obviously, I guess facilitation is part of that, but I know you also do it sort of separately as well. What does your main role? What does your main role involve?

C.B

Yeah, so we've got engagement advisors. Obviously, the organisation's quite technical organisation, quite science and engineering led, but we also have engagement and communications experts within the Environment Agency, and I'm one of those. So I work alongside quite technical teams, and at the moment I'm working, I've worked in lots of different parts of the organisation, but at the moment I'm working in flood risk management, supporting our teams. I work nationally, and so supporting our national teams with big projects where there's, they're difficult topics, where people have strong opinions. And my job, my main job, is engagement planning. So we're whatever the project is thinking about what are our engagement aims? Why do we want to work with our stakeholders? Why do they want to work with us, making sure we're not just thinking from the perspective of the Environment Agency, my job is to help our staff to think about the impact it's going to have on on a range of stakeholders, and plan the best methods that we can for that particular project to work out, how can we get the best from our stakeholders? How can they get the best of us? How can we find solutions that work for all of us, not just for the Environment Agency?

So we try to avoid taking what we've called in the past the ‘decide, announce, defend approach’. My job is to help staff to be more, to sort of take a more ‘engage, deliberate, decide’, so to help have quality conversations about these difficult issues, really listen to our stakeholders, designing the right methods, really to help create that space for those quality conversations about what can be really difficult issues. And that's my job, is designing those sorts of engagement methods, if you like, and then facilitation sits really nicely alongside that.

H.J

And so when you do that facilitation, I as far as I understand, you're part of an internal facilitators network. How, how did that kind of come about? When was that set up?

C.B

Yeah, that's right. So when I joined the Environment Agency, back in 1996 we didn't have many people who worked in engagement roles or facilitation network. So we started really by setting up the engagement roles and setting up training for staff around comms and engagement and how to do that engagement planning like I've just talked about. And very quickly we realised actually there's another set of skills that that we need to develop as well, which is facilitation. So when you are designing methods that involve dialog, you know having facilitation skills, having skills to be able to design those interactive sessions in a way that you're making the most of that time when you've got your stakeholders in the room is really important. And it's quite a different skill, actually, than just engagement planning, being able to design a face to face or an online session where you've got people in the room making the very best of that time. So we're all really busy. Our staff are busy, our stakeholders are busy. So making the most of those opportunities, that's why we developed the facilitation skills courses.

So first of all, we started off by getting some expert engagement professionals in to help us design facilitation courses that were for in-house facilitators. And then very quickly, and within about 18 months, we realised that people were going on the training, really enjoying the training, but then struggling to apply the training in their day jobs, because, you know, you could go a couple of months and not use it. And we very quickly realised that if you're going to facilitate, and you have to do it quickly, you have to do it very often, and you need, you need to support each other. So we set the network up to give people safe space to be able to facilitate internally. So to develop people's skills and create opportunities to be able to facilitate not in your day job. So that's why the network was set up, was to, so people could put forward a facilitation request and get someone who wasn't their day job, they went and practised their skill outside their day job, which, which means you can facilitate in a more pure way which was, which has been fantastic. It's, it's worked really well.

H.J

And I want to ask a little bit more about that, actually. But before I do, I just wanted to pick up on the differences between engagement and facilitation, and where you see the differences being?

C.B

yeah, I do think they're quite different skills. So I think being able to do good engagement planning across a project, you think we've got big projects that might go on for years, and they're quite technical. You need to understand the, you know, the technical context of that bit of work, what the business objectives are, what the engagement objectives are, what best methods we can apply, you know, to help people to engage with us, and for that to have an impact on on the decision making, that's quite different. You could do that, and then you can realise in that process, there's usually going to have to be some kind of series of face to face events. But the person doing that engagement planning might not necessarily have this skill to be able to run that face to face content, and sometimes actually, we do need a completely independent facilitator.

So there might be a topic where we might have lost trust with some of our stakeholders, where it's not appropriate for the Environment Agency to facilitate those conversations and we do need an independent facilitator. And that is whether it's an in-house facilitator and an independent facilitator, being able to design that's more in depth, designing how to make the most of the conversation, how to create a space where people feel safe, to be able to air their concerns and feel listened to. I guess it's like engagement planning, but it's really specifically thinking about that particular conversation and what you want to get out of that conversation. So it's micro design, I guess, within a particular moment in time, and you might use that facilitator, or you might use a facilitator that then exits the process, whereas the engagement person stays throughout and they use the results of that conversation, and they kind of have to carry on, whereas a facilitator might just come in for that particular moment, then they might not be involved again. So they are quite different skills.

H.J

And so what determines how you choose a particular facilitator, be it an in-house one or an external facilitator. How does that process work?

C.B

Yeah, so we'd use an in-house facilitator for a process where, so quite often the engagement person needs to be, needs to participate in the conversation. And if the engagement person involved in that bit of work needs to be involved in the conversation, then they'd use an in-house facilitator to help make sure that, you know, they just come in, offer the service, create the space so that everyone in the team can participate. And often there's other people outside the team, you know, other stakeholders and things. And if the topic is not too controversial, it's all to do with positionality and trust and the way the Environment Agency is viewed. If there's good trust and good relationships between all the people, then an in-house facilitator can do that role. When I'm doing that, I upfront say, I work for the Environment Agency, but I'm not here today as someone who works in the Environment Agency, I'm here to facilitate and make sure you're heard. I'd work with all the different stakeholders before to make sure that the design was taken their, you know, that their needs into account. I wouldn't just turn up on the day, so do all the things that an independent facilitator.

Obviously, we're a public sector organisation, so it has to make the most out of me as a facilitator and engagement expert. So I try and do that as much as possible. I'd only use an independent facilitator, which obviously costs us money as an organisation. We’d only do that in a situation where we genuinely needed that independence, and lots of reasons for that, but normally it's to do with trust and transparency and making sure that, you know, there might be awkward situations where things might have gone wrong in the past, and stakeholders would feel more comfortable if someone independent is facilitating, even just for a small period of time, just to help us through that.

H.J

And how many facilitators have you got as part of your network then?

C.B

Yeah, I knew you were going to ask, I think there's about 200 at the moment on the facilitation network.

H.J

Wow. Okay, and how do you manage that kind of balance of work in your, let's say, day job, versus facilitating for a different, a different project that you're not part of then?

C.B

Yeah so for me, I mean, we all do it differently. So we're allowed 11 development days a year. And so I use those Development Days aren't just, you just, don't just go on training courses and things. I use my Development Days to do independent facilitation for other people within the environment agency. So each quarter I have a maybe do one event per quarter for someone else, if it's a chunky event, because you need to do the planning for them, you need to facilitate and then help them with the results. So I think we all do that. We view it as part of our development, and we, you know, discuss it with our line managers and carve out time to go and do it. It's completely up to each individual facilitator to decide, and we have peaks and troughs in our work. If you're working on a project that had a lot of facilitation within that project, then you might not do any facilitation for anyone else in that quarter. But yeah, generally, people use their development time.

H.J

Okay. And what kind of facilitation do you particularly enjoy?

C.B

My favourite thing I've done in the last 12 months was when we were at the River Severn, when we did, when I have opportunities to facilitate with members of the public who are not part of the Environment Agency. And I was really fortunate, we were sort of testing a new methodology on the River Severn about adaptation pathways, they're called, so thinking about climate change and the impact of climate change, and we did something called Community panels, where we got members of the community. So an independent facilitator designed the process and needed some sort of support facilitators, and I acted as a support facilitator, and that was really, really fun. It's just a real privilege to be able to hear from members of the public who don't know anything about what the Environment Agency does, and yeah, to help them to have conversations about the environment and flood risk management, and their ideas were absolutely brilliant and really refreshing to hear. And that was, that was great, because most of my work is either internal or with partners that know the Environment Agency well. So that was something that was different for me and really stretched me as a facilitator, bringing together people that didn't know each other. We were doing it online, and, you know, I didn't know them, and it was, yeah, it was helping them to feel relaxed very quickly and heard, that was, that was really good. It was good for me as a facilitator. Good stretch.

H.J

Nice and how often, I guess, do you get to do something a little bit stretchy? Let's say that you actually learn from rather than, let's say a bit more day to day type stuff?

C.B

Probably only a couple of times a year, because it did take up quite a lot of time. It was four evenings and a whole day on a Saturday. So that's quite unique. But again, very much supported by the organisation, and was viewed as part of my development. And it was, it was a brilliant part of my development. It really blew the cobwebs off in terms of my facilitation skills. Took me out of my comfort zone, and it was really good. And I guess it would be easy not to do things like that, and it would be, you know, easier just to kind of do the day job. But where's the fun in that? You know, it really, it really helped me, and I took a lot from it back to the day job, and it reminded me about the importance of making sure people are comfortable and active listening. And it was good for me to hear how people view the Environment Agency, who don't know much about what we do. And so, you know, they came up with these brilliant ideas. Like, as an engagement person, I was able to come back in and sort of talk to people about so. But realistically, yeah, time wise, probably once or twice a year.

H.J

And how easy is it for you then to kind of just thinking about that there's different hats that you wear. How easy is it to be sort of, you know, independent facilitator versus engagement professional, and, you know, to kind of remember which hat you're wearing, I guess?

C.B

Yeah, it can be hard. I think when you're, we get quite embedded in the projects that we're working on. So I'm working on one really big project at the moment, and, you know, you have weekly calls within the technical team, and you become part of that technical team, and that's where it becomes hard to add value I think. When you're fresh and you go into a team, that's when you know you can sort of challenge in a really constructive way. So I think we just, yeah, I just I do, I need to have reflective conversations with people on a regular basis. So my manager is brilliant for that. She's quite sharp, she's really useful for me and sort of challenging me and making sure that I am still doing the job and not sort of just blending into that technical team.Because facilitators and consultants, the benefit of using independent facilitators is that they challenge on our cultural assumptions, and we have got a lot of cultural assumptions, and we do make a lot of decisions, which means that we probably sometimes can push engagement down the track a bit further than we should.

So yeah, so that's it's difficult, but yeah, using, using my manager and and also independent facilitators, that's where they can really add value. I think when we're using them on projects, it's really having really useful conversations with independent facilitators about what I'm working on, and they can give really good advice and just keep you remembering about how to challenge teams in a constructive way. But it is quite tiring. I'm not part of that team. I am there to challenge constructively, and it, yeah, can be tiring, but it's, you do get a lot of rewards as well from it, but you're not part of that team. And that's, I guess that's a bit like what it's like as a consultant, is that you're not, you're not fully part of that team. You're there to kind of help them as a team, to work well together, but not necessarily be embedded within that team.

H.J

Which definitely has its pros and cons. So thinking about then, the kind of the learning, the development, the support that you have to work as a facilitator, what kind of opportunities? I know you said you have your development days, and that you use those to do facilitation. But what else are you able to do to kind of keep your skills up and to learn more?

C.B

So we get together as a network, so we have network learning days. So we've got one next Monday, so we run those about every six months where we get the whole network together face to face. We have network days more locally, like we, me and you run one in Bristol, which is really good. And the thing I love about the Bristol one that we do with the International Association of Facilitators is it's so refreshing for the Environment Agency, half the people that come are from the Environment Agency, and half the people that come are just independent facilitators doing all sorts of facilitation across all sorts of sectors, charity sectors, you know, finance sectors all around the world. You know, some of them work in Africa and all sorts of different places. And it's really exciting meeting, and really, really good for us to to be challenged and meet people that are doing facilitation in other places, and they you know that those days are brilliant, and although only a couple of hours, probably learn more in a couple of hours than you could learn, you know, in a whole day online and things and just little conversations and testimonials and, you know, different methods that people are testing out and what's gone wrong and what's worked well. That works really well.

And the two day conference that the IAF run in April. So I went to the, I went to that for the first time two years ago, and I went last year as well. And then every year I'm bringing more and more people from the Environment Agency, because that's when I learn the most in the year is just immersing yourself in two days of just learning sessions and being exposed to people that are facilitating in really different contexts. But there's so much that we can learn from each other. So yeah, and just techniques that you just wouldn't even dream of, I just techniques that I wouldn't even dream of, you know, like last time I went, there was an amazing session about using your body and not talking, but just how you can just facilitate using movement and using your body and help with conflict resolution and different difficult conversations with people just using your body. It sounds really strange, but it was really amazing. It's really interesting.

H.J

I guess it's the same for for any of us that facilitate, we tend to do our particular thing, or even if you're an external independent facilitator, and even if you work across different sectors, you can get a little bit stuck in your own, you know, you have your preferred tools and techniques, and you use them again and again. And so any of those kind of days, you know, for me, definitely I learned so much and been to so many sessions where I think, oh, yeah, that's a thing, I've never thought about doing that. So it's definitely not just internal facilitators that have that, because I think the rest of us do as well.

C.B

Yeah, yeah, it's great, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah.

H.J

It's really nice, the Bristol meetups you mentioned, I think that is a really nice mix of, I think it's about 50-50 split, internal and external. And I'm always amazed myself at the breadth of different types of facilitation, and the more you, you know, you talk about facilitation and what you can facilitate, you know, it's actually quite a huge array. The edges are very fuzzy, but it's really nice to see all those different methods and different conversations that we have together.

C.B

Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

H.J

So thinking about the actual tools and techniques and all that kind of stuff, what's the one thing that you really, really love? I know you've talked about working with the public, what's the one methodology, perhaps, or tool that you really love using? Is there one or a few? Perhaps?

C.B

So I worked on a research project called ‘adapting to a changing climate flooding coast’. It's like in difficult situations where flood defence is not the answer for lots of different reasons, but there's not a straightforward, this is how we're going to manage the problem. It was a really good opportunity to take ourselves out of our comfort zones and think, what methods within, with these communities could work? Because we've not got all the answers, actually. And so we developed some more conversation based techniques. And so we did role play simulation. I think when people say role play, everybody's like, Oh, but it's a 90 minute role play simulation where everybody gets a chance to hear different perspectives. And so that was a real privilege being involved in testing that and very emotional. So things like role play simulation and those sorts of techniques that support better quality conversations. I sort of we experienced a situation where people have been working together for years and years, like the local flood Action Group and local planners, our members of staff, and people got to the point where they didn't want to go to the meetings anymore, but because it was redesigned around this role play simulation, and they all went along and took on someone else's role for 90 minutes. At the end they, it was quite emotional, and people, I think, were able to empathise and stand in the shoes of I didn't realise I was making you feel like that. And it was a building block for completely redesigning how the different stakeholders then worked together, and then they got together after the role play simulation, said, What does this mean for the way we're going to work together in the future? And it was just, it was very powerful. It wasn't very long. It's only 90 minutes, like I said, but it was just the fact that it was like a key I suppose that sort of opened up people's eyes to realise that they'd all been exhibiting behaviours that were really unhelpful if they did genuinely want to find a way forward with each other and help each other out to find solutions.

And also, everyone went to the pub afterwards, which I think also just really helped for them to see each other as human beings and to realise that it's not easy for people to just work in a professional role and take their hat off. We are all people and we, you know, we do really need to respect each other within conversations. And it was a yes, it was quite a simple technique. And in the past, I would have been one of those people as soon as you say role play simulation, I would have been one of those people that's really sceptical, but it's really changed my view on the power of standing in someone else's shoes and pretending you're that person and doing that in a safe space. So that in the last few years has probably been the technique that I think has been most powerful in helping people that are really stuck in positions and the meetings have become very adversarial and difficult, and where our staff don't want to go, the stakeholders don't want to come. You know, it's the worst situation that you sort of as a facilitator and engagement expert that you bump into more often than you'd like to. And it's trying to help people reset their relationships. And it was a really powerful technique.

H.J

Wow, it's good I guess that you have such a technique that you know definitely works in a given situation. And it sounds like those perhaps conflicting, difficult conversations do come up a bit, I guess, with the very nature of the work that you do.

C.B

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

H.J

And do you get to kind of play around much with different tools and techniques? Because I presume you've got quite a lot of time pressure to actually do the facilitation and do all the rest of the work that you need to do. Do you often fall back on tried and tested things?

C.B

Yeah, absolutely, we absolutely do fall back on tried and tested things, especially when we're doing things in-house. I think if we were, if there was a situation like that, we would use an independent facilitator to come in and help us. Even if I was doing some of the design work, I would be working alongside an independent facilitator. Yeah, I haven't done any roleplay simulation without an independent facilitator. And I think that is really worth it, and it can make a massive difference. So yes, it's recognizing those situations, I think, where something's become unproductive and difficult, mental health wise, for everybody involved, and it is worth then the investment of we need to do something different here. So we do support those situations.Most of the time,yeah, we're just using run of the mill techniques, like we love online since covid, you know, lots of online workshops, mural boards, or, you know, whiteboards that sort of thing is our go to run of the mill. What we would use all the time, slido polls, things like that. Yeah, that's just the everyday stuff that we're doing.

Although, like having to be very wary about not making assumptions about people's sort of not everybody's comfortable with using those, those sorts of techniques, you know. So having to remember that you do need, you do need to give people space to understand how to use the mural board. And I think people, yeah, so the mural boards and concept boards, whatever you use, they're brilliant, but you do have to always remember to do a little intro. It sounds really obvious, but otherwise, I think it can be a real barrier for people. Some people just don't know how to move the bits and bobs around, and just not getting too comfortable with whatever technique you're using, I think is really helpful.

There's loads and loads of techniques, and I think one of my favourite ones that I learned at the last International Association of Facilitators is like the role play simulation is a difficult technique, like, as in, difficult to design, and you need to do loads of prep. But the really quick technique that I learned was called, ‘I wonder if’, and that was a really good technique, and it's just a different way of framing things so and that can be used at any moment with even within a meeting, you know, and that thinking about how you frame questions is maybe the, maybe the use of questions and how you frame questions is the most powerful tool that we've got as facilitators, in terms of, even within a session, that can make a real difference and turn a conversation around.

H.J

And I guess, particularly when you know you can't necessarily redesign a whole session each time for every piece of work you do, and sometimes, if it's about, perhaps just making those small changes, by asking those powerful questions then, and they get you the results, much easier to focus on doing something like that than thinking about sort of grand redesign and using all sorts of different tools and all the rest of it, which is nice, and I think does keep us kind of interested. But actually, there's a question about, I suppose, who are we doing that for? Are we doing that for us as facilitators, because it's interesting, or are we doing it for the participants?

C.B

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I love a new technique.

H.J

I was gonna just a sort of extra question, really, about that online versus in person? What's the kind of balance?

C.B

Oh, yeah, like 95% online now, I would say. We've always been really careful, I think, as an organisation in when we get people together because of the carbon footprint. So, you know, ever since I joined the Environment Agency, there's, there's always, quite rightly, does this have to be face to face? Yeah, and we obviously use the trains and things like that. And, yeah, now is, since covid, I think it's, I guess, you know, we've realised the potential of online and invested in, you know, the government, just generally, I think, has invested more in sort of tools and techniques to help us as as people working for the government that to use those sorts of tools and techniques to have more effective online meetings. So the vast majority of the comms engagement work I do on projects is online workshops, rather than bringing people face to face. And that's a big change in the last five years, because when I was working on the National Flood and coastal risk management strategy four or five years ago, we did bring stakeholders together, at key points for face to face meetings. I think if we were doing that now, a lot of that would be online, so you still have, you still have meetings with people, but you know, they're virtual, which brings its opportunities and challenges. It's more inclusive for some people, because they don't have to travel. And, yeah, it's, but it's, there's something magical about having people in a room, and that's the bit you miss.

H.J

Yeah, definitely. I was going to just pick up on the challenges bit. So I've asked you about what you enjoy about facilitation, and you know, nice, all the nice stuff, but what are the main challenges of being an internal facilitator?

C.B

I think the main challenge is, I'm working on a project where, you know, where I'm always, whatever I'm working on, when you're working on the project, and you're part of the project team and you're the engagement advisor on it, how independent can you be? And that's a challenge. And so identifying when I need to bring in another in-house facilitator, or when I need to bring in an independent facilitator is really important, and I do, I do have to do that often on the big projects I work on. So, yeah, so that's that's a challenge, is recognizing when you need that and being able to see that far enough in advance so you know, so you can plan for that.

And the other challenge, I think, is it's easy to get really busy on your day job and on your projects and that they are it is busy, and there is a lot to do,making space for me to go and be an independent facilitator for someone else, when you're really busy making space to do that as often as I can. Otherwise, I don't keep my skills fresh, and six months can go by and I realise I haven't gone and done something. I've done lots of facilitation, but I've not done anything for someone else that's completely independent of my day job. And so that's what I have to check myself on, is making sure that I am, I am still doing that, and when I do it, it's so brilliant. And that's when, like I said earlier, that's when you get taken out of your comfort zone of facilitator, which is what sharpens us up, I think. Because facilitation is hard, it is it's exhausting, but it's brilliant as well, when you have those magic moments, when people have understood, you know, understood each other better, and you've helped, by the way, you've designed that meeting and created that space. You've helped people to move forward more in a more positive way, and that's worth it.

H.J

Definitely. That's a definite similarity. I think, you know, as external facilitators, exactly the same. Well, certainly for me, you know, it's that feeling, I guess when you've you've done something right, you know it's gone well. And you know that people have come to a good place at the end, it's like, yes. Nice, big glow.

C.B

Yeah, ready for my Mars bar at the end.

H.J

Yeah. And so, I guess, last question really is, what advice would you give to anybody else that is working as an internal facilitator. Any words of wisdom?

C.B

Yes, I would say, keep taking opportunities for training, because I think formal training has its place. And I think going and doing more formal training, it's easy to sort of just do your training initially and then never do any more formal training. I think formal training has its place as facilitators. So going and regularly doing formal training. Definitely mixing with other facilitators who are not part of your organisation. So the International Association of Facilitators provides that perfect opportunity in April. It's you know, and so if you're able to go along, even if it's just for a day, not the whole thing, I think that's really helpful. And then the last thing is, as often as you possibly can, is to facilitate outside of your day job. And I know that's difficult, it's difficult to make the time, but that is, I think, where you'll build your confidence as an independent facilitator. And getting, you know, getting feedback, I guess, is the last bit that links to that other one. So yeah, that's the things I would encourage people to do.

H.J

Brilliant. Thank you. It's been brilliant to talk to you today, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and bits and pieces about all of your experience and all the stuff you love about facilitation.

C.B

Thank you too.

H.J

So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales

N.W

If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com

H.J

And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?

N.W

We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?

H.J

Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?

N.W

Send us an email at [e-mail] .

H.J

We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.

N.W

Until then, thank you for listening.