Dee Arp, COO of NEBOSH and Vice President of INSHPO Returns to the Podcast

Safety Consultant with Sheldon Primus

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Keywords: Dee Arp, NEBOSH, INSHPO, Kathy Seabok, BCSP, CSP, IOSH, India, Global, EHS, Safety, Work at Home, Hybrid Workplace, ISO 45003, ISO 45001, Psychological Safety, Gender, Sustainability, Workplace safety, Safety regulations, Hazard prevention, Risk assessment, Workplace health promotion, Stan Smiley
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[00:01:01] Sheldon Primus: Well, welcome to the show, Miss Arp. It's so good to see you again.

[00:01:05] Dee Arp: Thank you so much. It's good to see you. And uh yeah, I can't believe it's more than two years ago that we last spoke. But yeah, good to be back.

Sheldon Primus: Yeah. Well, tell us what happened, or what has happened, with NEBOSH since our 2021 interview back then.

Dee Arp: Well, a lot, a lot, Sheldon. So I think when we spoke last, we were like the rest of the world facing the lockdown challenges and, you know, all the issues that, that brought. The challenge of the pandemic and it's, it's always timely, I think to remember those that were lost to the pandemic and the family and friends that are still dealing with, with that. So our hearts always go out to them. I mean, certainly at NEBOSH we are still dealing with those post-pandemic challenges. I think, crikey, since we last spoke, like many organizations, our staff really started a very slow and careful return to the office space. Because again, I think when we spoke 2021, all of our people were, were working at home and still under certain lockdown restrictions. So we're now in a hybrid or an agile working space. So, absolutely recognizing that people performed really well in that home space, you know, they really valued having the agility of that, the choice to come back into the workspace now, that's open again. So, yeah, we had two buildings pre-pandemic. We just have one now, so never are all our staff in the office at the same, same time. But that works really well, you know, depending on what people are doing, some can perform better at home, some prefer the office space now to come in and have that, that interaction or when the training or supporting each other. So yeah, some real value has, has come about with, with that. So we've returned to the office space.

I think the other key thing we spoke about was our sort of crisis response to the pandemic when we were together in 2021, and the fact that 2020 the majority of our assessments were taken in invigilated examination halls, traditional pen and paper, and we'd made that huge change to open book examinations. So our first one was back in August 2020, so we were still very new in introducing our open book examinations. Uh The response to that has been amazing. It really got us through the challenges of the pandemic. Registrations were not only maintained, but they've really, you know, thrived and, and increased. So yeah, the open book examination has been fabulous for us and we were rewarded with the Federation of Awarding Bodies, Awarding Body of the Year a couple of years ago and also we won in the Assessment Association Award as well on the back of of that assessment. So yes, so so much has happened and I must as well. Um welcome our new chief executive, Andy Jenstone. So he's been with us about three months now and it's great to have him on board. He brings super amount of experience in, in higher education. He's passionate about EDI, passionate about social purpose and really engaged in the whole quality piece in everything that we do. And we've also just in the last few days uh announced our new chairman as well, which is a gentleman called Rob Hall and he'll be working with Andy on leading the the organization. And again, Rob comes from a training and education background and committed to educational excellence.

[00:04:41] Sheldon Primus: Hm. Wow, uh so you're growing as well, expanding as well.

Dee Arp: Yeah, I guess the, the other thing I, I mean, I mentioned all the positives about the open book examination which, which are many. It's allowed us to assess in a much more valid and, and reliable way. However, the challenge it's presented, because there's always two sides to the story, is malpractice. So because it is an open book examination, it's made it easier in some ways for the non-authentic learners to, to access that assessment without the commitment to the learning that's intended to go before it. So, you know, as um listeners will be, be aware, NEBOSH is committed to putting learners in workplaces around the world that have the learning and the qualifications to make a difference. And what we're finding with some of the challenges of malpractice is that learners will just try and circumvent that learning, gain the assessment by non-authentic means and then they're in workplaces without the, without the learning. So we have, no questions asked, a zero tolerance to malpractice. And since, particularly the introduction of the open book examination, we've really increased the measures that we've put in place to proactively prevent malpractice and the reactive measures to, to find it if it does happen. And we part company with learning partners if they've been complicit in malpractice, and we'll ban learners from taking any future assessments if they've been engaged in, in malpractice. So, yeah, so that, that challenge continues. You know, malpractice has always been with us, but it just changes in its shape and form and we're continually trying to work to address that. So, yeah, that's an ongoing challenge for us.

Sheldon Primus: Yeah. Gone are the days when uh the students used to write on their hands all the answers on their hands and then they're, you know, looking like this when they're doing their notes.

Dee Arp: Ahh. You're so right. And you know, some of the innovative and creative ways that some of these learners find to, uh like you say, to cheat, if only they put that energy into, to the learning, I'm sure they'd come out with distinctions anyway. It's a, it's a shame. But we do recognize that in a lot of areas of the world, the qualifications are high stakes. It gets them jobs, it gets them lot of income to feed the family. So we do have empathy we, we understand, but we know we're so committed to reaching those learners and helping them understand that they can get the same outcome by, by learning and gaining their qualification by authentic means.

Sheldon Primus: I've seen so many different ways of doing uh certifications through NEBOSH, with your extensive web of network providers, and um I've seen a bunch of them where you could take the course first and then you could get the certificate afterwards. Uh So basically it's uh no pressure to get the learning, and then at the very end, when you're ready to get certified, that's the payment process. But you get the learning for free. Is that a model that you've seen of? And, and has it worked?

Dee Arp: Um It, it does work. You know, we also recognize that learners have different learning styles and like you say, we do have an extensive network of learning providers that offer different types of learning. They had to adapt and change in the pandemic as well. So many now offer online learning or, or, or a mixture to do blended learning, some face-to-face and some online tuition. But I think, you know, the model that works is the one where the relevant time for each learner is taken to, to teach them, you know, the content of that course of that qualification. And another change that we've made in the last few years, Sheldon is to really emphasize the importance of formative assessment. So preparing the learner for those endpoint assessments, you know, checking in where they are on the learning journey, making sure that they understand where they are and giving feedback and engaging the learner in that process, you know, giving them ownership for the learning as well. So it is very much that that partnership approach, you know, the more the learner and the learning partners can work together and work out what is the best route to that final point assessment to get the most engaged understanding, the better the outcome is going to be in terms of a successful assessment, but also the knowledge and understanding that is then taken on into the workplaces.

Sheldon Primus: Wow, and you're in that space because you are truly been uh like even when your, your RoSPA days, you know, and, and, and getting where you're creating courses and you're, you're trained in this. So you must really get a kick out of seeing this transaction, or transformation of, of how higher education and learning is catching up with a safety career. We never had that in safety. Before, it was just you got injured, then you're in safety. So you got injured, now you're working in safety. Now, you know, NEBOSH and, and the way that you guys have um made it. So, um you used all the, the learning and instructional designing uh in such a way that it's easy for learners to learn throughout the globe. And I like the way that you guys have uh have partnerships with people that, that doesn't seem like they can understand the safety and health by when you look into their, their world and you see like electrical cords everywhere, you know.

Dee Arp: Yeah, it, it's, I mean, you know, it, it's a passion of mine, you know, back in the days with RoSPA, it was the same purpose, to keep people safe and, and, and well. But yeah, you're absolutely right. When I started in health and safety, it wasn't because I chose, I chose to do it. You know, I came at it from, from, from a different route and there are so many of, you know, my peers that are exactly the same, they didn't choose a health and safety career, they, they, they ended up there. But yeah increasingly so now people are choosing health and safety. And again, I think the pandemic really elevated the profession. It connected professionals across the world. It showed the value of the profession and, and I think the other thing that's happening is it, you know, some colleagues in the arena, people like Cathy Seabrook, you know, um is talking about sustainability and she talks about joining the dots and I, I think now joining the dots is all about people and valuing people. So if you come at it from, you know, psychological safety or mental health and well-being or office sustainability or social impact, you know, see all of these things at the heart and at the core of everything is people and valuing people. So I think, yeah, the profession has been elevated and there's more connectivity between different professions who are recognizing, yeah, people matter. You know, you can't achieve anything in this world unless you look after the people with, within it.

Sheldon Primus: Well, you definitely have seen that with your organization and um and just the history of NEBOSH altogether. Us in the US, we don't know it as much as the global community. Um So we're, we're used to, um designations driving us. We're always seeking the next designation. Um But it seems like you guys have not only very, very well sought at designations, but you also help people who want to like me, myself in the future, I'm going to do more. Uh what's the process for someone who, who has the brain space to make new courses, to get it approved and to, to actually partner with NEBOSH for, for new material?

Dee Arp: Oh That, that, that's a great question. Uh it's something we're looking at right now as to what, you know, what courses, what education is missing and how can we best fill that. So, yeah, if somebody's got uh that, that sort of idea and some content, by all means, you know, contact me, contact you know, colleagues at NEBOSH and we, we'll look into that. You know, what we do need, like any organization is the business case behind that, we need to be able to justify that there's an audience and what that content means. But yeah, we're always very happy to look at new content and, and, and the need for it.

Sheldon Primus: OK. So we just got to do the needs analysis and follow our, our ADDIE model to make sure.

Dee Arp: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sheldon Primus: I just love talking to other in uh instructional designers because you understand those things, right? Um had another question, we talked about psychological risks, you mentioned it before. And I am now trying to catch up to ISO 45003. Um I, I see it as a consultant and those listening to my show are people who are either consultants or playing the role as a consultant for their company. Um I, I know that's a need for psychological safety um it's just so hard to, to, to quantify it until ISO 45003 came out and it gave like a nice good path to follow. Uh Are you seeing the same thing globally? I know you, you, you travel everywhere and you, you speak everywhere. Uh Are you seeing the same thing where there's a big need for the psychological um risk to be addressed?

Dee Arp: Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, I think the pandemic has been instrumental in that. So, you know, I don't need to tell the audience all the challenges that came with the pandemic and how that affected and impacted people's mental health and well-being globally with furloughing and redundancies. You know, the uncertainty of people losing loved ones. It really brought, you know, psychological issues, mental health and well-being to to the fore. And, you know, you look back historically, it it's absolutely not new. You know, I think the pandemic has given us that new impetus and words like resilience are coming in, in more and more. But, you know, our profession has always been committed to health and safety. I think it's fair to say that health has usually been the poor relation. There's been a much greater focus on, on safety globally. We've then seen increased attention being given to health with control of hazardous substances, for example, you know, manual handling this kind of thing. But when we talk about health, it's physical and psychological health. You know, we need to look at, at the whole person. So I think the best way our profession needs to think of it, is in the same way that physical risk is all about the possibility of physical injury from exposure to a hazard, psychological risk is the possibility of psychological injury when exposed to a hazard. So this is the amazing thing that our profession has got the skill set and the capacity and the capability to really, really help in, in, in this area. You know, in the same way that we work to eliminate and reduce the risk of physical hazards, it's the same approach with psychological hazards. And as you quite rightly said, ISO 45003 gives some structure. It links to 45001, it puts it in a framework that is, you know, beyond familiar to, to the health and safety practitioner

[00:16:11] Sheldon Primus: With the, just had another thought about that because I know with uh with pandemic in the US, we, we had a split uh way of, of addressing it uh where some people didn't address it at all and some people were, you know, on the other end of the scale. Uh But I know the uh the isolation and the feelings that everybody had during that time period has traveled over now and then, uh truly, there's still a lot of um workplaces that aren't addressing other psychological risks. Such as, um I've got a good friend who's uh who's transgender. So as I'm talking to him through an episode he was telling me truly, when he was going through his transition period, his company supported him throughout everything and it was really a, um, uh, a good testament that, that you can have a partnership with companies, but there's some male dominated country, companies that would be, I don't know. What's a, what's a good way of saying that they might be intimidated by that? I don't, I don't know how to, how to express it, but without the company properly protecting someone like my buddy Ari or, or someone who truly feels like they can't express themselves at work, or show pictures of their, their loved one in the office without getting uh bullied. Um Is this the same type of um psychological safety that we're trying to deal with?

Dee Arp: Absolutely. Absolutely. And people need to feel psychologically safe in, in, in every aspect. So, you know, I think you, you've raised a really good point. So, you know, people are more comfortable about, I think more comfortable now, generally talking about the mental health and well-being issues. But, and there's a, a breadth and a wealth of information out there, and I think most people now commit to the importance and the criticality of addressing these issues. But I think it, it's the tangible changes that, that we need to see. And by by way of the example you gave some organizations a way ahead of others. Um And I think we can either be, you know, at either end of the scale of that, we can either be encouraged or, or, or discouraged. But you know the way I see it, it's, it's pouring light into the darkness, we need to be encouraged by, and led by, the people and the organizations that are making those changes. And, you know, I absolutely believe we keep pouring that light into the darkness and it'll flush the others out or, or educate, you know, it, it's the education, isn't it that, that we need? Um, but, yeah, and I think, you know, when you bring it back to the practitioners and those tangible tools, you know, we understand how to identify, you know, those psychological hazards. If it's an environmental one, we know that our well-being is affected by temperatures and noise and not having the right equipment in the environment. We know, you know, going back to, you know, stress management standards, you know, with the HSE and other standards around the world that people not having a say in the control of the work, not having support from the managers, perhaps being, you know, bullied in organizations. These are the more tangible things that our profession I think is used to. But when we're dealing with the psychological hazards and the risk we've got to put, as you've quite rightly said, then that personal over the top. We've got to understand in organizations what else have the individuals got going on? Because we're talking about psy psychology and, and psychosocial, it's so individual. You know, who are the people that are going through those challenges that you've just described, you know, who are the people in the organization that are perhaps the prime carer for a family member? You know, what else have they got going on in, in, in, in their day? Yeah. And, you know, in a nutshell, you know, we can all contribute to that whether a health and safety professional or not by just showing up for each other and just being kind and being there and showing up for each other.

Sheldon Primus: Yeah, I, I agree with that. And uh I honestly, you know, I'm, I'm now coming to the terms because I see it a lot as a consultant. I go into different organizations and sometimes I see where a safety person is just literally um like verbally abusing workers because they didn't follow certain standards. You know, they're just, you know, talking down to them about not following this standard and they know better. But I have to come in in this uh scene as, as almost a I'm a third-party looking for fresh eyes towards hazards, and now my eyes are open towards the psychological hazards as well. So I have to coach those, those um those moments when I see safety professionals almost like using safety as a weapon to their workers. It, it makes them uh pushes them away from safety and health, and it now will make them feel like they have to um get back at the safety officer at their own demise. And it just makes no sense to me, but I see it all the time.

Dee Arp: Yeah, and it's good that people like you are going in there and, and bringing about that change because I guess what you've got to look at then is the culture within the organization. You know, why is the safety professional feeling that they've got no choice but to, to, to regulate it in such a formal way? You know, you've got to look up then at the leadership within the organization and, you know, I've done a lot of sessions recently on resilience. So what we've seen is a lot of organizations are recognizing the importance of, of, of individuals and, and, and psychological safety and well-being, but they put all the effort into individual resilience. So there'll be the bowl of fruit and they'll be the gym membership and the organization will be saying, you know, it's so important, you must get work life balance and you must take time for yourself. But the managers have got all these targets to reach. So the message they're giving their people is you've got to do these 10 things before you leave today. So you've got to have organizational resilience as well. And this is why ISO 45003 is fabulous because it's difference to 45001 is, it talks about your primary, your secondary, and your tertiary controls. So the gym membership, the bowl of fruit, you know, the mental health first aid is all fabulous, but they're at that tertiary level level of control. What we need is those primary levels, that leadership commitment, the resources, the strategies, the secondary controls, you know, the implementation to deliver that strategy and then the backup of the tertiary. So yeah, I mean, a great example that you give, Sheldon, but you know, what is the organizational structure in the organization that makes a safety professional field? They've just got to go with the checklist and, and enforce and I've always said, you know, as a health and safety professional, we need to do things with people, not to them. Because if they understand that you're asking them to do this particular thing because we value them, we want them to go home the full and rounded and intact, healthy and safe person that they arrived that day, and we want them to be safe for the family and friends. You know, that's why we're doing it. Whereas some, I know it's in, in some organizations, the message is you've got to do this because we want more out of you. We, we need things done quicker.

Sheldon Primus: So funny because that's like, uh like how I normally see people when I, when I go into these organizations and you're right. I, I, I'm, I'm judging the safety culture and it starts from the moment I pull up. Uh in most cases I could see, even at the gate, when they say we've had X-amount of days without an accident. In my brain I'm thinking, oh, it's going to be a long day.

Dee Arp: You've got a lot of work to do.

Sheldon Primus: As soon as I see that sign, how many days without an accident, I'm like, uh-oh, we're in trouble. So, uh, that's one of the first things I do is I, I, I just kind of be quiet and I look at the relationship with, uh, the employer to the employees. And if someone could say, hey boss, where's your hearing protection? And someone's like, oh yeah, good and the boss is really receptive. Uh I see that right away, versus someone who gives them a glare, you know. I see organizations now, even the bosses are starting to understand that the uh the old traditional uh Douglas McGregor X um type of personality that says the workers are intentionally being just don't want to act like they're supposed to in this work atmosphere because they're, that's what they want to do. Uh I've seen so much more people get out of that and go into the Y, for those of you listening though, the Douglas McGregor uh has two theories of management. One is X one is Y. Y is the person who believes that the people, the, the management uh workers are there to have fun as well as to learn, they're self-paced, they're directed and you're just there to, to get that group working together. Whereas the X people are, you gotta do what I say when I say it. and that's

Dee Arp: And that right there is the beauty and the simplicity of it. Yes, there is some challenges in, in, in that personal and identifying that the psychological hazards. But the simplicity of it is, you know, this is we get better performance out of people if they feel safe and well. Yeah, we get, we get better performance out of a person that is feeling psychologically safe and, and, and well, and again, somebody who feels psychologically safe is much more likely to tell the manager, tell the supervisor, if there's a hazard or, or a risk that isn't being addressed. Whereas in a non-psychologically safe environment, people are not going to be open because they fear they're going to be judged or, or, or blamed. So they're so, you know, the solutions that are, are simple and the what the profession has known for many years, it's just getting those tangible actions and, and chipping away. You know, as you well know, it's that patience and persistence and, and keep repeating that same message to bring about the change that we need

Sheldon Primus: The International Network of Safety and Health Practitioners

Dee Arp: Organizations. Yeah,

Sheldon Primus: And I get it all the time. I, I, I constantly have heard of you guys for forever, including, you know, with the Singapore Accord back in 2016. Um If anyone's not aware of that, if you were a safety practitioner the Singapore Accord kind of made a way for, for everyone to know these are the competencies you should have if you're going to have a practitioner level. And uh there's two different levels, uh practitioner and

Dee Arp: Professional

Sheldon Primus: Professional, thank you. Uh So that's, that's really, really a great organization. So congrats to that one.

Dee Arp: Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure and honor to be involved. So, as you said, the Singapore Accord was now some years ago, the world's changed. So we are currently looking and revisiting that competency framework and looking at the skill set again that today's health and safety practitioner needs. But yeah, it's a real honor, as I say, to be amongst that, that group, you know, we've got representation from America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Spain. Um Yeah, and looking to build that membership and create a wider alliance. So we truly are, we've got that diversity and, and equity, you know, recognizing that truly stronger together and the more diverse membership we can go, we can get, the better we can serve our, our profession.

[00:27:49] Sheldon Primus: Awesome! Well, thank you so much for spending uh this, well, for me, it's my wife said you're talking to someone from England on Fourth of July in America. Isn't there something wrong with that?

Dee Arp: Uh It still fascinates me. I mean, again, before the lockdown, you know, I would hardly ever do this. And when we have the INSHPO meeting Sheldon and we meet, the execs meet once a month, you know, and with the connecting Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, UK. And it, it, it's amazing. It's amazing what the human being is capable of. So, yeah, there are challenges with health and safety and psychological safety, but we are truly stronger together and we can, we can nail it. And everybody I meet in this profession is amazing and passionate and committed. So, you know, people like yourself, it's an absolute pleasure to, to connect and work with,

Sheldon Primus: Aw, you're gonna make me blush.

Dee Arp: Aww.

Sheldon Primus: Well, tell everybody how to reach you and, and, and NEBOSH and, and maybe I, I would love for you to tell us uh before you go just um uh, for those who may not be familiar with what you guys do and what they could expect when they go on the, the NEBOSH, N-E-B-O-S. N-E-B-O-S-H uh dot org dot UK.

Dee Arp: Perfect. Yeah. So we are uh an England and Wales registered charity. So we're a not for profit charitable organization and we are predominantly an awarding body. So we are regulated by two regulators in the UK, in Scotland and in England to deliver qualifications and those qualifications all serve our charitable purpose, which is improving health safety and well being in workplaces around the world. And we do that by the learning journey and the assessments that form part of our qualifications. So what you can expect by connecting with us is, you know, the links to those competency frameworks, you know, core content that today's health and safety professional or other people in organizations need to make workplaces a healthier and safer and fun place, as you said, uh to work.

Sheldon Primus: Yeah, and they have diploma programs and everything else. Um I know we've got many different countries listening in and honestly, there is probably a NEBOSH program for you, whatever country you're in. So

Dee Arp: There is, and again, you know, our diploma holders, you know, um which is like a degree level qualification above that, we do have a smaller number of master's programs. But our alumni are across the world. You know, we have now more than 6000 alumni members and sitting under that many thousands more of our certificate holders. So, you know, our reach is, is, is, is, it’s broad, it’s broad. And we know these people are doing amazing things in those organizations that they're now working in.

Sheldon Primus: Oh, yes, I hear only good from NEBOSH grads, and uh in the way you guys work with IOSH and everything else, it's just a wonderful um connection and that's why I, I love to, to bring that to the US too because we're, we sometimes we get a little myopic. I have to say that

Dee Arp: And that's the beauty of INSHPO you know, we connect to IOSH is in INSHPO, ASSP, you know, the Canadian Professional Membership board is the Australians and so on. So it does it. It helps us, you know, create that, that by that diversity. And remember, we're not alone. You know, particularly, you know, so many of these challenges, whether it was the pandemic, whether it's psychological safety, whether it's mental health, we all have it. We all have mental health. We can all, we can all learn from each other.

Sheldon Primus: Yeah, absolutely. I'm still, you know, beating the drum to make sure that uh we get so many safety professionals into therapy and a few other things because we got to get ourselves right before we could go out and, you know, reach everyone else. And if we, if we're scared of it, then how can we add that to our wellness? You know, everyone's looking for emergency, excuse me, employee assistance programs. Uh a lot of those programs do have mental health counselors to help us and there's a bunch of uh Better Health and a few other groups out there that are online. And I, I honestly tell people on the podcast and everything, you've got a part of yourself that really needs to come out and that part of yourself is, could be considered spiritual, could be considered whatever you want. But it's, it's truly a part of you that if you push it down too much, you're gonna be unwell. And we're in the business of making people well.

Dee Arp: That is just incredibly inspiring, Sheldon. And, and, and it's hit the whole nail on the head because if people like you and me and other health and safety professional leaders can reach out and say, yeah, I have mental health and I've had these challenges and I've reached out for help. It is just beyond empowering. It make, it creates that psychological safety. If the leaders in safety can be that open and acknowledge that yeah, I've had these issues. It, it creates that psychological safety. So yeah, thank you.

Sheldon Primus: Oh, thank you so much for being on the show. I don't know. Every time I hear you, I just smile, I just, you make me smile.

Dee Arp: Oh, you likewise. Well, you have a very lovely smile too. We're smiling together here.

Sheldon Primus: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much, Dee. And tell Zoe, she is just legend. I just love me some Zoe and said, tell her. Thank you again.

Dee Arp: I will, I will. She is a legend. She's amazing. Thank you.

Sheldon Primus: Alright, enjoy your evening

Dee Arp: Take care. Thank you. Bye, Sheldon. bye bye.

[00:33:44] Announcer: This episode has been powered by Safety FM. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast or broadcast are those of the host and its guest and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the company. Examples of analysis discussed within the past hour are only examples. They should not be utilized in the real world as the only solution available as they are based on very limited and dated open-source information. Assumptions made within this analysis are not reflective of the position of the company. No part of this podcast or broadcast may be reproduced, stored within a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means mechanical, electronic recording or otherwise without prior written permission of the creator of the podcast or broadcast, Sheldon Primus.

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