Artificial Intelligence Part 4 (Computerized Clergy)

Down the Wormhole

Episode 81

What do robotic Torah scribes, Bluetooth rosaries, and a decapitated hitchhiking robot have in common? They're all teaching us what it means to be spiritual beings in the 21st century. Whether we like it or not, smart, adaptive technology is working its way into our religious and spiritual lives. Will we use it thoughtfully to enhance our lives or will it just become another technological nuisance? We're still in the early days of AI, and our actions today will have an outsized impact on how it develops. Let's be intentional, thoughtful, and prayerful about how we shepherd its growth, and become the sorts of people that Hitchbot would be proud to call friends.

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More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/

produced by Zack Jackson
music by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis

Show Notes

To read:

1) The church of AI

https://www.wired.com/story/anthony-levandowski-artificial-intelligence-religion/

2) Robot religious functions

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/9/9/20851753/ai-religion-robot-priest-mindar-buddhism-christianity

3) Funerals for robotic companions

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/09/funerals-for-fallen-robots/279861/

4) AIBO funerals and our humanity

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/robot-funerals-reflect-our-humanity

5) Can robots pray (and a super creepy monk)...we didn’t talk about this, but it is still a fascinating part of the conversation

https://aeon.co/essays/can-a-robot-pray-does-an-automaton-have-a-soul-ai-and-theology-meet

6) Values-based AI

https://slate.com/technology/2019/11/priest-rabbi-robot-walk-into-bar-religion-technology.html

7) The Southern Baptist Convention principles on AI (again, didn’t talk about this in particular but it is creative and proactive rather than reactive)

https://slate.com/technology/2019/04/southern-baptist-convention-artificial-intelligence-evangelical-statement-principles.html

8) Hitchbot (wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HitchBOT

9) Social Credit system used in China (wiki article)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

10) 5min video on what the Social credit system looks like

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheGoodPlace/comments/a719ko/s1e1_chinas_social_credit_system_resemblance_to/

11) Point system in the Good place

https://howard-chai.medium.com/a-look-at-the-moral-point-system-of-the-good-place-7858215fd9dc

12) Opportunity’s last words and goodbye tributes

https://laist.com/2019/02/16/jpl_mars_rover_opportunity_battery_is_low_and_its_getting_dark.php

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.

Zack Jackson 00:04

You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are

Rachael Jackson 00:14

Rachel Jackson Rabbi at Agoudas Israel congregation in Hendersonville, North Carolina. And my favorite fictional robotic companion is Data from Star Trek Next Generation.

Zack Jackson 00:30

Zack Jackson UCC pastor in Reading, Pennsylvania, and my favorite fictional robotic companion is Marvin the Paranoid Android from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

Ian Binns 00:42

Ian Binns Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And my favorite is R2D2

Kendra Holt-Moore 00:51

Kendra Holt-Moore PhD candidate at Boston University. And my favorite fictional robot companion is also Data. Because I just started watching Star Trek, and I love him.

Rachael Jackson 01:07

Resistance is futile Welcome on board.

Zack Jackson 01:12

I don't think she's gotten that far yet.

Rachael Jackson 01:13

No, not that don't be fine.

Zack Jackson 01:15

Well that'll be funny in a couple weeks.

Rachael Jackson 01:20

Okay, so thank you for that question. I'm glad that we were able to start there. And as we are doing our AI series, and I wanted to talk about this in a slightly different way than we have been talking about it. So previously, we've talked about transhumanism and cyborgs. And really, what is the concept? Last time we talked about this, we really focused on education. And so today, I really wanted to focus our conversation on religion, right, what is AI in relation to religion, and that in and of itself is a huge topic. But I want to start with an example from my tradition. And this example, is the use of ritual of a particular ritual object and how, how it appears. So I'll go into a little bit of detail there. In Judaism, we read the five the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers in Deuteronomy, from a scroll, rather than from a Codex form. And the scroll form doesn't have vowels. It doesn't have punctuation marks doesn't have page numbers. So it can be very complicated to read. And not only that, it's extremely complicated to write. It takes a scribe who's working on parchment, which is animal skin, with using a quill dipped in special ink, writing on this paper, and the letters have to be extremely precise, and everything the columns are justified. And if anyone has ever tried to hand write in justified columns, it's so crazy hard. So sometimes the letters look really long, or sometimes the letters are really squished and it's just it's a very laborious, intensive intensive in terms of time but intensive also in terms of emotional and and frankly redundancy. And for for a good scribe or for a professional scribe, a year to a year and a half is what it takes full time to write a Torah. And then each of the peaches, pieces of parchment are stitched together rolled up and Mazel Tov we have we have a scroll. I don't want to necessarily give an estimate, because I don't want to undersell those that are that are paying for this. They're a brand new one is anywhere between 40 and $80,000. Just Just to give a Yeah. Wow.

Zack Jackson 04:05

Yeah, I guess you're paying the wages for a year.

Rachael Jackson 04:08

You're paying the wages, you're also paying, like parchment is animal skin, like that's not cheap. And these use, you know, many, many animals. Again, it depends on the size of the parchment and the kind of animal if you're using, like, goat skin, how many pieces of parchment you can get per goat, like it's, it's a lot.

Kendra Holt-Moore 04:30

How big is the finished product.

Rachael Jackson 04:32

So the parchment itself can vary. It's anywhere between, say 18 and 36 inches tall. Right, so top to bottom, and of course, there's a there's borders around it so that you're not just touching the scroll every time so 18 to 36 inches. Our synagogue is lucky enough to have three scrolls of various sizes, and then you put them on wooden die. You stitch them into wooden dowels and roll them up that way. And so when you're actually scrolling the scroll, you're using the wooden dowels to move, you know, literally go through the parchment that way and that way, of course, we, we make it pretty, because everything needs jewelry. And so we put a beautiful gown on top of it, and we put some finishing touches on it, and then the pointer because you're never supposed to actually touch it. And so the thing that you're carrying around our largest one is about 50 pounds, and is over four feet tall. You know, Tao is over four feet and over 50 pounds.

Kendra Holt-Moore 05:34

It's massive.

Rachael Jackson 05:35

Yeah, they're massive write these and no, of course, there are small ones, right, you can get one that's about 12 inches, but they're extremely hard to write, which actually makes the cost go up because like you're doing tiny print then and,

Kendra Holt-Moore 05:48

and then you also have to buy a magnifying glass to rewrite.

Rachael Jackson 05:51

They're really hard to read because like I said, No vowels, no punctuation. Really hard to read.

Ian Binns 05:58

So, gosh, that sounds like an awful lot of work. Can I interrupt? Of course, is it required? Or maybe required is not the right word. But does every synagogue? Have one? That is the goal? Yes. Okay, so the goal is very, but it's not like, there's not anything written in where it says for you. It's pretty much.

Rachael Jackson 06:19

It's pretty much it's pretty much there. Yeah, it's not that you have to. But how do you read from the Torah, if you don't have one? Right? I mean, you're reading from a Codex of Hamas, a Torah, write a paper Torah. But like, if you're going to do it, like the best you can do is do it well. And so sometimes there's like loans like, oh, there's a little small synagogue over here that doesn't have one, we'll loan it to you for, you know, 30 years or something,

Ian Binns 06:44

do you have like, Are any of those in your office where you're in our worship space,

Rachael Jackson 06:50

oh, they're all in the sanctuary. And they're all under a locked cabinet. And they are all there is a fire a smoke detector inside the ark where we keep them. And the fire department knows that, that save those, like, if you're here for a fire, go right there. And we'll deal with the rest of the building. Like they're really they're that important, like they are the most important thing in the synagogue. So parchment and scribing is expensive and intensive. So the question is, will then why do it? Right? Like, why have a person do this, we've had printing presses for hundreds of years at this point. And okay, so you don't want to print the toy because you can't really it's hard to do printed to our on parchment. Okay, but now when the 21st century, and the 21st century, we can have a mechanical hand, actually write the Torah, and it can use a parchment, it can use the special ink and it just once you program it in there with all the specifications, this AI robot can write the Torah. So why wouldn't we have that and once you've put in the the capital of programming it, you just go right, you don't have to you don't have to change it up. So many times, you don't have to repay the programmer. Every time you just say, Nope, we just need more parchment more ink. Alright, so if we're still doing a halakhically, what is the role of the person? What does the person bring to this, that a robot can't or a and I'm using AI in this a not just a robot, because as I was saying, like, they can be different size parchments, the column width can be different. So you have to you have to teach the robot or the robot has to know what what justification in this, you know, full justified center justified looks like and so it has to know looking at the parchment, so it has to learn not just be programmed. So that's how I'm using AI as opposed to just a robot program. And there's a female scribe, which is a whole different category of, you know, egalitarianism and feminism that we won't get into this particular episode, but there's a female scribe, and Julia seltzer, who with I think it was five other women scribed an entire Torah together like each one of them took most of a book, Deuteronomy is really long. And then they stitched it together. And what she noticed is that their handwriting was different, that someone might have had like a little bit more of a flourish when they made the crown on a letter or a little bit like maybe one looked a little blockier and the other one looked a little bit softer, that looks different and you know, the person behind it and so now you're like I don't I don't study the scribe but there aren't that many in the world and there there haven't been so if you know the age and the location of the tour that you have You know, the person who scribed it, there is a story, there are memories, there is an intention behind it, there is an awareness of what you're doing. And that awareness doesn't exist in AI and robots. There's a prayer in Judaism, which says, Thank you like in the mornings, thank you for my soul. And thank you for the awareness of my soul. And it's that extra step that I think is missing, when we're looking at what can I do, as far as religion is concerned? So I just wanted to open up with the tour and saying it would be far cheaper, and far more accurate if we chose to do this sort of robotic arm AI printing than using a person. But it's not just about the money, right? in religion, it's not just what is the bottom line? Right? That's, that's one of the things that makes religious organizations different than, you know, other businesses or for profit centers. And I'm being kind that religions are not for profit centers, and sort of being generous to religion as a concept, in those ways, that it's not about doing it the cheapest and fastest. So what is it about? So when we look at again, using the example of writing the Torah? What What is it? So that's where I wanted to start. And so that's when one place for my tradition of where AI could be used, but we're choosing not to use it and wondering if there are places that you could see, either as an object or as a ritual in and of itself, from your traditions, or you are understandings that could or could not be substituted with AI?

Zack Jackson 12:00

Yeah, so there's a product that you can purchase from the Vatican itself. That is basically a Fitbit. For your your rosary.

12:14

Yes, I

Zack Jackson 12:14

saw that, were you It's great, because it's got its own little charging station, and you pick it up, and you make the sign of the cross on it. And that activates it. And then it's able to tell by the weighted beads, and for those of you who maybe aren't as familiar with rosary has a certain amount of beads. And the point is to hold a bead while you say a prayer, and then move to the next bead. While you say a prayer. It's a physical act while you're doing a spiritual act, in order to connect the full body to engage all of your senses, and to help you keep track of what you're doing while you're doing it. Because like, if you're saying a prayer a number of times in a row, how are you going to keep track? Like, do you lose track, you know, like, well, I guess I got to start over again, or start writing it down or something. So the rosary has long been a helpful tool for people. But in this one, it now syncs up to your phone, and can remind you, if you haven't been doing your prayers, or reward you, if you have been doing your prayers. Have you know, there might be social functions where you can encourage each other, I know that there was by the Bible gateway app, introduced a social aspect to it. And then suddenly, I started getting notifications like crazy, where all of my friends were like, connect with so and so on Bible gateway and share your daily devotional, your practice your reading. And so then that now there's this kind of social pressure, that now everyone knows what I'm reading. And now I have to make sure I'm reading extra spiritual stuff. Make sure everyone else knows how spiritual I am. And so there are some issues with that. I think we're now it Jesus says, practice your religion in secret, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. If possible, go into a closet where no one knows you're there. He says that if you are fasting, not to put on sackcloth and ashes and let everyone know that you're super spiritual, but to put on your Sunday best and act like everything is normal. So nobody knows. And so a lot of these we talked last time about the gamification of education and other things. And so when you have sort of the gamification of, of religious practice, then I don't know, you start to want to show off a little bit or feel that social pressure that a lot of the church because of, you know, but I don't know, I've never used one of these. So maybe they're great. I do love love. All gadgets. That's fascinating. That's,

Rachael Jackson 15:03

that's a great word gadget. Right? It's using tech to encourage a particular practice. And one of the pitfalls, I think, is when we make that practice public, the Fitbit idea, right, you can have your own Fitbit, and not tell anybody, by the way, and you can set your own, you can set your own, like, tell it get up every 10 minutes or get up at you know, 10 minutes every hour, or whatever it is, and you don't have to tell people, but then we get that bias built in of whoever is creating the software, whoever is creating the technology, what is their value system. Sort of like the zoo, I didn't, I never joined the Bible gateway group, nor did a join this other way that I'm going to say, covenant eyes, right? Like basically, where you can have a person, double check your browser history, to make sure that you're staying on the up and up the accountability of what you're looking at on the internet. And as we all know, the internet was created for porn. So if the internet is created for porn, then your covenant eyes need to make sure you're not doing that. I'm being a little flippant, but maybe not that much. But that then turns into, it could turn into a race of I am holier than thou Look at, look at how much I'm doing and posturing and buckling under peer pressure, and then you're losing that that authenticity, and then suddenly, it's just besting each other, which kind of goes against most religious tenants from most religions that I'm aware of, right, like, look how better I am than you are at this. But building in that value system, and I think that's, that's the really dark gray area that could get pretty twisted, when we look at AI because at this point, at least, there is not sentience and choice in AI, which means it's all about the person who's programming it and the values that they're using. Yeah, I

Kendra Holt-Moore 17:45

think it's interesting, the examples that we're talking about are, seems to be examples of what AI takes away from us, or from religious traditions, whether that's like authenticity, or, you know, like not not having a person's story behind a tourist scroll. But instead, it being you know, a robot that has like standard handwriting and all these things, or, you know, the rosary gadget that, you know, for whatever reason, there's something that we feel is missing from these rituals and relationships. And I like that all makes a lot of sense to me. But I was really struck by one of the articles that Rachel shared with us before our meeting today, and it was an article in The Atlantic called funerals for fallen robots. Yes. And that that piece was just like highlighting the emotional attachment that people have for robots and how we, you know, the, the emphasis here is not so much on like, the nature of AI itself. I mean, it is a little bit, but it's more about, I think it's more about, like how humans create themselves, like the creation of the self through relationship with objects, which is something we've always done like before robots, but it's so interesting to me, because it's like, is that something is that like, what the flip side of AI is, we gain a lot by having potentially these robots, or, you know, even if it's just like a gadget, you know, like, I definitely have emotional attachments to like random objects, just like little tokens on my desk, because of the person who gave it to me. Or, you know, I have like a pouch of these. I call them my study tokens. They're just like little random buttons and pins and rocks and little figurines that people have given to me and I set them around my computer sometimes when I like really need to Get in the zone. And you know, they're not robots, but it's like this like emotional attachment with these inanimate like metal and rock objects on my desk. And I would be so sad if I lost any one of these things. And so I think it's like a very similar kind of relationship that if we look at robots and AI, like we can still form those kinds of attachments, and they might even be deeper, if AI is mimicking the kinds of like, human effect and human thought. And I just think that's so interesting, because it I, there was a long time where I thought, like, my gut reaction is that oh, well, that's still kind of empty, though. Like, it doesn't mean anything. And then like, the older I get, and the more I've like, thought about this, especially as technology just changes, I think that's like, I think it's really a powerful relationship, even though it's very weird to think about. But like, if I had a robot, and it was like, you know, r two D two, or data or you know, any, any of our like, famous robot companions from any fictional universe, yeah, I would want to, like protect that robot friend, and make sure that it was charged every day and make sure that it was like, happy and whatever, since that robots can be happy. And I think that that whatever, whatever we can say about the realness or not realness of that relationship, I think what's true about it is that it changes who we are. And it reflects something about who we are and who we are becoming. Because everything that we have a relationship with in the world plays on or, you know, helps to create the virtues that we have the weaknesses that we have the personalities that we have. And I just think that's really cool. And really interesting, because it doesn't have to just be with humans. And that's always been the case.

Zack Jackson 22:02

I that. I think we need to take a second and pour one out for hich bot while we're at it. Do you remember hitch bought? No. So it was a an adorable two young little robot from but too young. It was like 1013

Kendra Holt-Moore 22:22

Is it like a Tamagotchi?

Zack Jackson 22:24

No in 2013. So eight years ago, these developers in Canada made this robot and they made it to kind of look junkyard chic is how they called it, where it was cylindrical body. And it's got these like pool noodle arms and legs and this adorable little face. And the point of it was an social experiment to see if robots could trust humans. So it can't walk. But it can talk. And it was equipped with 3g connection and GPS, so that it could update its own social media accounts. And it could talk to the people who interacted with it and ask them to hitch a ride to the next place. And encourage them to like talk back to it had some rudimentary AI so it could communicate with people like a chatbot. And people would take pictures with it, it would be such an honor to like stumble upon hitch bot, and you get to update your social media and be like, I dropped it off here. And now the next person picks it up. It went across Canada three different times. I think. It went across Germany and the Netherlands.

Rachael Jackson 23:35

And then it just went the second one went across Germany.

Zack Jackson 23:38

Okay, but in 2015 tried to go across the US but got decapitated in Philly. Because Because Billy and if you were to ask me, somebody who's lived in Philly, and is from south south Jersey, where it would have been killed, I would have told you it would have been Philadelphia.

Rachael Jackson 24:04

Also, just just to add to that, it only its goal was to start in Boston. I remember Following this, it was it started in Boston and was going to get to San Francisco, got decapitated in Philly. And the head was never found. Like it didn't even it's not like it started in San Francisco. No, it started in Boston, and only got to Philly.

Zack Jackson 24:29

It had made it out of the East Coast or totally would have gotten there. It would have gotten there. If you can make it out of the East Coast, then you're okay.

Rachael Jackson 24:37

Ichabod I love what you're saying. Right? Like this idea of what is our attachment both from an emotional standpoint or she's made from an individual standpoint, but then also a cultural right like this poor hitch bot was totally fine and the Netherlands and Germany and Canada and the US we were like I don't trust you. Yeah. decapitate. Wow, season four of shields calculating things. So but what? What does that say about us and our relationship? And I think that's also what you were saying Kendra, right? This, this funeral for a bow AI Bo. I might be mispronouncing it. But that's how I had heard it. Right, these these robotic dogs. And it's true that even in the military people that have military companions, robotic companions, there's a sadness there. I mean, there was there was a famous movie, it wasn't a robot. But oh, Castaway. Right, Tom Hanks and Wilson, the volleyball, right there were weird, I think the movie was quiet for what 40 minutes, there was no dialogue or something like that, something crazy like that. And we were all just like, we'll setting like, we'll set it like we were just like something. And we had this immense attachment to a movie volleyball. No, it's just, it was so powerful, in fact, could create how much of the more so something has been there, watching your back, if something has been there carrying you on. And so many of us use objects as tools, right, that I don't have a deep attachment to my laptop or to my phone, like I use them, but I don't have an emotional attachment. My son, who's who's almost seven has had the same Kindle for, I guess we got him three years ago. And he has an emotional attachment to his Kindle, like he cares for it, he makes sure that it's in the right place, he makes sure that it's clean, he's sad, when it doesn't work, he makes sure that it's it's charged so that he can carry it with them. Like, it's very different than I need to use this as a tool, right. And so for me, we're able to use a AI or technology, we're using those a little interchangeably, as an ability to start forming relationships and bonds that teach us about who we are. And in religion, it's my, it's my understanding that one of the things that religion does, is teach us and help us with relationships, relationships, and in all, in all dimensions. And and I say that in the horizontal, it teaches us how to be in relationship with the world around us and those within the world around us, including ourselves, it is a vertical relationship, such that we have a relationship with the past and the future. And it's also the z axis relationship, which to me is the Divinity or spiritual aspect, right. So if we're on an X, Y, Z axis, the z axis would be the godly aspect. Or however each religion chooses to understand that which is not known. But it's, it's all relationships as almost as a stark difference from facts. And so if AI can teach us those things, or teach us how to do those things, or encourage those things, or grow those things, I think it can be a beautiful relationship, which is a couple of the other articles that that I'll post in the show notes, or I'll have Zack post in the show notes. So I think that there's beauty in there, what we need to make sure that when we're using them, and they're using us, that we recognize the values and that we trust what's in front of us. And I think that's an important piece that we're not that we haven't fully fully digested. How do we gain this trust? Right, so so Zack brought in the hitch bot, where it couldn't trust Americans and Americans couldn't trust it. And it is no longer, right. How do we develop the trust, which is the foundation of relationships?

Kendra Holt-Moore 29:17

Yeah. And I think that it's interesting to think about the trust that we can develop with these, you know, Ai, whatever technology, we're talking about these emotional attachments, and how that's a really different that's a really different relationship to these objects than talking about whether or not AI and you know, future robots will deserve rights. Which is like really interesting, because I think there's a natural blending of those ideas where over time, if we're treating something like we're In a relationship with it in the same way we would be with the human. That conversation to me kind of feels a note inevitable. I don't know, like what the answer will end up being. But, you know, like, that's already a conversation of like, Can robots? Or should robots who are more like Android in nature? Should they be granted citizenship, which is just like, so crazy to think about, but I think is, you know, is going to be a conversation that's like, way more prominent, like way down the line in the future when we do have robots that are a lot more like us. But for now, I think it's a lot easier actually, to ask the question of like, how can we trust the technology that's in front of us? Because that feels a little bit more manageable? I think, still a really hard question, because you have to think about the ethics of, and the values that go into programming. And that's like a huge debate to have about the, you know, the cultural code of the robot in front of you, and how that conflicts with whoever's using it or interacting with it. So still really difficult. But it's, I think, still maybe a little bit more manageable than talking about, like robot citizenship.

Zack Jackson 31:45

Have you all heard about what's going on in China with the social credit scores?

Rachael Jackson 31:50

Oh, yes. Oh, it's so scary,

Ian Binns 31:53

I want you to unpack that for us. Because that was interesting,

Zack Jackson 31:55

a way of, of using AI, especially, to keep humans in line. While they're already well known for their facial recognition, and the fact that there's cameras everywhere, and that those cameras are always tracking who you are and where you are, and what you're doing.

Rachael Jackson 32:15

Said, right and said with pride that I think it was that once you enter the public sphere, meaning not your own home, within three seconds, it can identify their entire population, like 1.4 billion people within three seconds.

Ian Binns 32:33

That was crazy,

Zack Jackson 32:35

which sure helped to keep the COVID under control, but also their populace. And so they've been doing these trial runs, in some places have adopted them more thoroughly, where they're essentially keeping record of each individual person and giving that person a score based on their trustworthiness. So things that might negatively impact your social credit rating might be things like playing loud music, or eating food on Rapid Transit when you're not supposed to, or jaywalking or speeding, or this is a good one, making reservations at a restaurant and then not showing up. Oh, yeah, I'm not correctly sorting your recycling. And if your score gets too low, you might be denied things. Like, I think I read that there was like 80,000 people so far, who had not been able to get on trains, because their social score was too low, and they couldn't be trusted on it. And if you want to get out of that, it takes like two to five years to get out of that. Or you can work really hard to raise your score. By doing things like donating to charity, or giving blood or volunteering or praising the government on social media.

Ian Binns 34:06

I feel like 10s of millions of Americans would have been screwed during the last administration.

Zack Jackson 34:10

Right? Yeah. So like, if you want good things like, you know, a line of credit to buy a house or favorable terms on loans, or getting

Rachael Jackson 34:22

a reservation at a restaurant

Zack Jackson 34:24

or getting a reservation at a restaurant, like you'd better make sure that your social social score is high. And this is, I mean, this is also a society that as is a shame, shame and honor based society. And so kind of taking advantage of that. In order to control the populace, using opaque artificial intelligence like No, nobody, this is not open source data. This is stuff that's tracking your every single movement, so you might be out walking Down the street somewhere, and you reach in your pocket to get your phone and a receipt falls out your pocket, and you get docked for littering, because it knows what you just did. And it was watching you. And supporters of this. say that this is going to be a way of creating a utopian society where like plenty of people will just do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. Do these

Kendra Holt-Moore 35:24

dystopian literature come on over?

Rachael Jackson 35:28

China, they don't have it. Yeah, it's not an

Zack Jackson 35:32

like, this will finally do what religion failed to do. In keeping the people in line and making a morally just society, because it offers punishments that are immediate, and felt instead of like, afterlife based.

Rachael Jackson 35:49

Yeah. And daily and daily life. impactful, right? Not just, yeah, eventually, one day, this will come back to bite you. And that took us, but like, Oh, I can't get on the bus today. Like, oh, that has impacted my life. And this is like, I'm wondering, did they ride? Or did they take notes from the good place? With this feels, this feels very much like the scores that people are getting based on their activities. And one of the things that I am troubled by, in this just one of very many things I'm troubled by with this whole scenario is we don't actually know the end result of a single action. So let's just take the littering on on the face of it. That seems like a pretty like, we'd all kind of get behind that. Right? Like, you don't want to litter like I'm not a fan of littering, and we talk about it and we don't want to do it. And sometimes Adrian IO and you know, his friends will go pick up the litter that we find in the in the park. Right, littering. I'm totally behind that. In this particular society, as far as I have read, and I, I could be corrected, please. Having clean streets is really important. Right that there's there is a value in the in the culture of having clean public spaces, in order to have clean public spaces. Somebody has to do that job. So if somebody accidentally litres, and then they get docked for it, then people stop littering. How many jobs did that cost? There was no intent behind the littering. But the accidental littering or the wind took it away. How many jobs did that cost? And what are the life what is the life like for those people whose job was to literally be a human a street sweeper. And, and those ramifications, that we're not able to see the human cost? Again, minus the whole dystopian issue, but that to be docked for something that seems dockable. But we don't know where this where this is going. That's where I'm uncomfortable with this, like, how far are we going? Oh,

Kendra Holt-Moore 38:19

but on the other hand, maybe we should just let the robots take all of our jobs so that we can just focus on our hobbies and have universal basic income. Am I right?

Rachael Jackson 38:29

Totally. Right. I just want to start doing more cross stitching. So yes, I am 100% on board with just take my job. Right? But

Kendra Holt-Moore 38:38

but we got to have the infrastructure like you're right. That's not where we are right now. But I hope one day, we can all have our hobbies, and money and just like live our lives because work

Zack Jackson 38:50

shouldn't be all I mean, according to will robots take my job calm. I'm only point 8% likely that clergy will be replaced by AI and robots,

Rachael Jackson 39:01

right. And we have seen that so very clearly in this last year. Because the people that have been in hospitals or have died or have had a funeral, or have had any sort of life cycle moment in which they want their clergy there, in addition to whatever worship we have on the weeks, there's no comparison and holding someone's hand. That, yeah, it'd be great if a robot did my job, but I don't think a robot could do my job. Right? Because there's something about the touch. There's something about the human connection. There's something about the look in a person's eyes that says, I see you and I empathize with whatever you're going through. That we haven't gotten there yet with AI and while the technical aspects of most of our jobs could be done I think even the jobs where it's a 95%, your job could be done by AI, or robot. It's not going to be a healthy thing. Because Where are we getting those relationships? Sorry, and I'm talking about

Ian Binns 40:15

that's okay. I'm just makes me think about like, if we think about so instead of just, you know, a thought experiment, I guess on what are the things in our so not necessarily to take our entire job? But what are the things within our particular professions? That if robots or AI took over that aspect profession, what would free us up to do more of beautiful things? We could do more? Still still with your profession? Yes, hobbies? Definitely. But like, so for me. And I know, we brought this up in the last episode. For me, especially it's like grading, for example. You know, if there were robots or you know, something like that, that could I mean, obviously, it's easier now than it used to be because of technology. But if that was a way where it can be fully programmed to do all of that for me, then what? There are other, I'm certain that there, it will give me time to do other things.

Rachael Jackson 41:18

Really? Okay, I'm gonna push you on that one a little bit. The reason I say that, barring Scantron tests, which are stupid. Good. Sorry, for those that I'm offending that do. I feel like you get to know your student based on the answers, they give in the questions, that you're losing something when you don't grade their papers. You're losing, how they're thinking you're losing. And what what creativity are they coming up with? And so, so I would say, if you're not doing that, you're not seeing the individual? What are if, if that part is taken away by robots, which I'm not quite sure how you would do that equitably? I would have to be a pretty smart robot to try to grade individual questions that aren't Scantron based, or that multiple choice, how else would you then get to know the students like that, to me isn't where you spend the time, right? in getting to know like, having coffee shop our having, you know, let's sit down and chat for 20 minutes, just because like the 20 minutes, I would have spent grading your essays. Now let's just talk about them. But I don't I don't know how you could equitably do that, honestly. And also,

Ian Binns 42:42

what I'm curious about is though, that, to me, is still less thinking in the same way that things are done now. Like I'm almost pushing us to think, what other avenues could it open. If some skill, some things like that, that can become very time consuming. I'm not saying already, like, there are definitely parts that I would still need to do as human. But I think there are some things that may make it where I could end up spending more time on other tasks and other ways of getting to know students and connecting with him. potentially even more fully.

Zack Jackson 43:22

Yeah.

Ian Binns 43:23

So all by all the grading, it's okay. So I'm just curious, like, Are there ways within your professions that there are some mundane things that you're just like, you know, what, if I could get rid of that imagine I would have more time on this,

Rachael Jackson 43:38

you know, what I gotta say, I have predictive text set up on my Gmail. And I have had it set up on my like, I've been using the same gmail account for work for six years. I'm pretty like I change it up, I don't, I don't write the same exact same thing every time. But I have a particular way of talking in email. I have a particular rabbinic voice or a style that's in email, just like when you if any of you were to ever talk to me on the phone, and and I pick up and I say, Hello, this is Robert Jackson, you hear my voice go up by about half an octave. It is amazing. Um, so I have that same sort of tick quality characteristic in my email. And so now when I'm writing an email, it will the predictive text will have almost the entire sentence written if I write one or two words, and I go, yeah, that's what I want. tab, tab, tab. And next thing you know, my entire email is written in two minutes rather than six. And so as a person who writes enter between 20 and 50 emails, writes 20 to 50 emails a day. That's that's been helpful, right? It's it's freed me up to have the conversation with someone in person.

Zack Jackson 45:19

I think a database that would help keep track of who is sick? Who is? Well, who is recovered? And who's related to who would be really helpful?

Rachael Jackson 45:35

Oh, I have that for you, I can send you the link. I well.

Zack Jackson 45:38

So one that that can also like predict things. I'm thinking AI wise, where, like, I know that this person has this condition, this condition and has been in the hospital this amount of time this amount of time. And then so you might want to check in on this person at this time. You know, have you talked with so and so lately? They haven't been in church? Oh, yeah. Okay, that's a good point, there's probably something going on. Because like, my mind personally doesn't work like that. I cannot hold on to details about individual people. Especially when I have that many people. Were I think, like, Oh, I haven't seen that person in six weeks, because I've been with the other people. And I haven't thought about it, or Oh, yeah, that's right, they did get COVID last month, and I never checked back in on them. I wonder how they're doing now like that kind of a thing, connected with the local hospitals, which could update me on people's medical conditions, as well as like death of relatives who maybe aren't members of my church, like it's scanning through the obituaries of the local papers to be like, Oh, well, I have this member whose uncle just died. But they're not. The uncle is not a member of my church. And so now I know that maybe I should reach out to this person, like that kind of assistance and pastoral care would be really helpful, because nine times out of 10, I miss it. And then I realized after the fact that I could have been a comforting presence in that moment.

Rachael Jackson 47:08

Although I will just say, I do have an awesome pastoral care website that I use. And it's, it's super helpful. It's not AI. But it's really amazing to help me to help me do those exact same to do those things. Again, it doesn't connect to the hospitals. It doesn't it doesn't scan obituaries, but it helps. It's my own personal. It's my own personal pastoral care assistant. Well, we

Zack Jackson 47:33

have a lot of clergy who listen, what's the website,

Rachael Jackson 47:36

it's called notebaert. And ot e bi, rd note, bird. And it is awesome. And I'm happy to share this and happy to be a poster child's No, they're not paying me for any reason. I just love it.

Zack Jackson 47:49

But they could.

Rachael Jackson 47:53

Really, and and they are. They're totally non denominational. Like, they they listened to the Jews, and they put stuff in there for the Jews. But there's a whole bunch of stuff in there for Christians to like, I haven't, you know, communion wise, I didn't, I didn't look at all the Christian stuff, because I don't need to. And they're extremely responsive and wonderful. And I could just like sing their praises all day long. Because I think we're getting there, right? Like, we keep having these, these brainstorming so we can get there. And I think if we're not afraid of it, and I keep going back to what Kendra was saying, right, that that initially, we started talking about the drawbacks, and Ken was like, Hey, what about all the positives? Wait, it could be so great. It would like it would just be wonderful. If our values were there, right, the value of pastoral care would have to be there.

Kendra Holt-Moore 48:50

Yeah. And I think to like another way of thinking about, like how AI would like, you know, supplement people's jobs. It's not even that, like all of the things that we do in academia or as clergy. I don't, I don't really know how AI is gonna, like supplement what any of us do besides like what we're talking about now with, like databases, like technology stuff, sure. But I just think, like, there are a different category of jobs that AI can do. So that it like frees up people like maybe, maybe there will be more people who want to be clergy members, or like, you know, researchers and teachers. And since AI is doing, you know, the jobs that those people might have been doing now, we have all these people who want to do these jobs, but we don't have to work the whole year. Like maybe we're on a half year schedule. And then you know, we switch out and then the robot or not the robot that that People who would have been doing, I don't know, pick a job, what's a job that maybe AI is going to take over one day? I guess we use the idea of like the streets with images, or sandwiches? Yeah, sandwiches. You know, like, it just creates an abundance of like, time, I guess is what it's giving us, or like opportunity to do something that you might not have thought you were going to do. I don't know, it just there's, there's more ways to think about it than just that, like, yeah, robots gonna, like grade my papers or like, sit by someone on their deathbed. Because I don't I don't know if like that. There's something about that, that makes me like, like cringe a little bit, even though that's like also what we're talking about as a potential for being like really cool. And

Zack Jackson 50:51

COVID, they've had to do that. And I there are hospitals that have set up these like, iPad robots that kind of look humanoid, but they have an iPad for a head, where you can connect to people that you know, and that you love. There's even some more advanced technology out there that will have a hand on it. And then another hand will be held by your loved one who's maybe in the waiting room. And then like the two cents each other cool and will squeeze cool other sad

Rachael Jackson 51:20

at the same time.

Ian Binns 51:23

But necessary during times like a pandemic,

Zack Jackson 51:26

right? Yeah. Right. But given a normal circumstance, no one would choose that. Right.

Rachael Jackson 51:31

Right. And, you know, what I, what I hear you suggesting Kendra, too, is perhaps that technology AI as it gets there, again, using them interchangeably, allows us to really understand what we want our lives to be, especially as Americans who have been trained and our culture of just high productivity, like unbelievably high productivity that our value is based in what we produce. And then our value as a citizen, or as a person is how much effort we put into our company. Right? Whatever that as a worker, that's where it last. And so if we have the ability to, to have our job being done by something else, rather than replacing our job, like finding something else, as in was suggesting to do with that time for a job to say, great, it's done. Now I have time to be me. I to actually say it's not. Yes, maybe the average is a 40 Hour Workweek. But I don't really know anybody that does that. I don't, I don't I don't know of any salaried, that's untrue. I know of one salaried employee who works for the government, frankly, and they're the only ones that I know that's a salaried employee that actually sticks to 40 hours. The only reason I'm using the term salaried is because the employer then has to pay per hour and usually they don't want to pay overtime. And so they're they're battling this like well, you then you just have to be extremely highly productive in your hour. So that's why I'm separating out the hourly versus a salary because the the employer in that case is not willing to pay the the overtime wages often read that this 40 Hour Workweek and this idea of downtime being not a good thing. Right. So

Ian Binns 53:35

you think about like, the genius time or whatever, that or whatever it was that Google had, right, isn't it, you know, they that they didn't Google Earth, like the idea for Google Earth and the development of Google Earth? What came from someone having that? Like, didn't they have it as their job like 20% of the people's time was meant for them to just focus on thinking, yeah,

Zack Jackson 54:01

whatever. Certainly the work on certain engineers job. Yeah, they give freedom to they have like little play rooms, basically. Yeah, with little things to mess around with. And they encourage people to do that. And, yeah, but that's just for the engineers that are making things.

Ian Binns 54:16

Yeah, yeah. So when I was thinking, so this is I like that you mentioned that Rachel was still part of the job. So I guess for clarification, if there was a way that there that AI can help make some of the tasks of my job easier, right for me to then go in directions with my job in life that I couldn't have even imagined as a teacher. I would take that. Or just I know there could be some negatives there. Potentially, that that could be coming. But I would choose to initially focus on what are the things I could gain. Like that would give me the time to not have to worry about oh well. So When I'm recording this podcast, there are other things on my mind that I'm like, oh, man, I gotta get back to that someday, right? I would have to worry about that stuff. Right, I would have that time. And the things. So what I think about like within academia, so when we started this, the podcast idea, and we started running with it, and now we're doing it. And it's been almost two years, and I wouldn't trade for anything. And I'm not I'm not ready to leave it. I love doing this stuff. Right? One of the thoughts that had to go through my mind was is how do I write this down to make sure that my supervisors all the way up the chain in academia value it? And then you think about, so when you get new leadership, and they see that I'm writing on these areas that may not be as high research productivity? What does that mean? I don't care, because it's doing what I love to do. Right. And I still get to do the other things too. But that just means that now I'm adding more to my plate, which is fine. But I'm always thinking about when it comes to like, teachers. So there are ways you know, in this field of education, that could make it so that we could do some of those other things that people love to do that somehow to resolve the time or because of just exhaustion. Right? Yeah. So yeah, I think those are the things I would try out and just backing on my give that a shot, if it doesn't work, doesn't work, I try something different. So I don't think I would lose connection with the students. If I had some of those other tests that were a little bit easier for me to do at least less time consuming. Right, so that because I would use that time to plan for more different types of experiences in the classroom. When I'm thinking about class stuff, here are some different things that could potentially do in my classroom. Now, let me now got time to really plan it out. Let me run with it. That's how I would want to approach it. And it's funny while saying that the AI on my wrist was telling me, you look like you need to breathe right now. I guess my heart rate was going up.

Zack Jackson 57:06

I should think we we should all breathe, right? Yes, I know.

Ian Binns 57:09

But it says even a minute of deep breathing can be helpful. It's almost like a meditation reminder to meditate.

Rachael Jackson 57:17

Right? A reminder to to be, and I think we're at the point and perhaps perhaps it's just my limited imagination. And perhaps it's my limited vertical ability. I can't really see AI as like really intelligence. Right? Just really, I think I'm stuck in technology, and what that's doing. But I think and I hope that we have the ability to create things where where we are allowed to be human beings, not human doings. And that can be the focus. So however, we can get there, using the value systems that we have in places individuals or to whichever society and culture we ascribe of which many of us have overlapping ones, right, Amir for me, you know, feminist, and Jewish, and American and all that stuff, right, like overlapping, but what are what are my values they're in? And how can I use this technology in the AI to allow me to be a human being not just a human doing, and in that way, sort of living up to this idea that I myself, so there was a Zionist named a had her arm, which actually he changed his name, and it translates to one people. That's what that translates to, I had her um, he was writing in the late, late 19th, early 20th century, and he was defining the difference between sacred and profane. And that which is profane, is a means to an end. And when you get to the end, the object itself loses its meaning. And the sacred is that which the object itself can be used in lots of different ways to achieve many different ends and is, is by itself, by its nature, holy. And for me, that's what I want for the human being, not just the human doing, not that I am here, to do something, to do a job to do this, that and the other but to be and there and that being using the AI to create an imbue holiness in the self in whatever job we're in, whether that's in religion, whether that's an academia or any myriad of other fields that we've sort of, we've sort of touched on and when we're able to then bridge AI and religion in those ways we can see ourselves as holy that's, that's, that's my sort of my hero range. Bow in the sky hope

Kendra Holt-Moore 1:00:02

that what you're saying, Rachel, about bridging those those things is reminding me of. And this sort of ties back to a conversation earlier about religion and AI and like the funerals of robots and stuff like that. There was a late 19th century anthropologist, Eb Tyler, if you study religion, you probably know him. There's lots of like, problematic issues, we could talk about them. But the what he was writing about at that time was about animism, and had this idea that animism is like the original religion, and that it was also like a central characteristic of what he called a quote unquote, primitive religions. And so that's where we can like talk about, like colonialism and all that stuff. But the the idea of what he's talking about is that there is like this development of religion where you start out as being animistic, which, if you don't know, animism is like, basically put life or seeing that there's life or like a soul in inanimate objects or in things besides humans. So thinking that the river has a spirit, and the trees and the rocks have spirits. And so this is what Tyler's talking about. But it's interesting to me, because I, I was thinking, you know, even though someone like Tyler, or, you know, other anthropologists and people who would say like, oh, only primitive religions have animism or this idea of like, life and soul and inanimate objects, or like having these childish attachments to things. What we know or like, what, you know, if you study religion is that has nothing to do with like, this like line of progress, where like, the more advanced modernized religions don't have attachments, or don't have these ideas of life and spirit in nature or other inanimate objects. And I think like the prime, like piece of evidence for that right now in this conversation is that, you know, we can really be looking at the most, like technologically advanced places, and we're talking about how we, like throw a funeral or some other kind of celebration for our robot friend, and that it's just like this human impulse to relate to the world around us. And there's nothing that's like primitive about that, whether whether it's like animism in the traditional sense, or what we're talking about now, where we're relating to things in this new way, as technology changes. You know, our best friends are going to be robots one day, and it just is like, so interesting to see how humans are continually coming up with ways to relate to the world around us. So that's what I was thinking.

Zack Jackson 1:03:19

Yeah, it's the final words of, of the opportunity rover that struck a chord around the world that yes, you know, the opportunity rover, went for 15 years on Mars, way longer than it was supposed to the little rover that could, and then one final dust storm covered the, as far as we know, covered it up. And, you know, it's just sending telemetry data back and you know, just the battery's dying and whatnot. And somebody on Twitter, wrote, The last message they received was basically, My battery is low, and it's getting dark. And that phrase, then, like, went around the world. my battery's low, and it's getting dark. I've seen that tattooed on people. I've seen so many t shirts and mugs and like that little rover with its little solar panels, just alone on this distant cold planet. my battery's low and it's getting dark. Then there was like this worldwide morning for this little little rover guy. That will one day I'm sure be in a museum and those words I hope will be inscribed on it. So that we know that like this is a human connection. This isn't just a religion thing. This is a human connection.

Rachael Jackson 1:04:39

All the fields right the rest in peace

Zack Jackson 1:04:44

rest in peace which bot whose final we will

Rachael Jackson 1:04:49

find we will find your

Kendra Holt-Moore 1:04:52

your word

Zack Jackson 1:04:53

and avenge them. No, no, no hitch bought wouldn't want it that way. hitch Potts, fine. No tweets By the way, were August 1 2015. Oh dear, my body was damaged. But I live on with all of my friends.

Rachael Jackson 1:05:09

Sometimes that was funnier to me.

Zack Jackson 1:05:12

Sometimes bad things happen to good robots and then little bit later posted a picture of itself with its with its creators and said my trip must come to an end for now but my love for humans will never fade. Thank you friends.

Kendra Holt-Moore 1:05:31

me getting love should fade. A little little buddy.

Zack Jackson 1:05:35

Oh, no hitch BOD is the best of us.

Ian Binns 1:05:41

Data Philly.

Zack Jackson 1:05:43

Well just wait a few years when hitch bought the white comes up and saves us all from the evil forces having battled the Balrog of Philadelphia

Rachael Jackson 1:05:57

to be controlled

Zack Jackson 1:05:58

to niche all right next time