Leading Generations: Kathryn Landis on Creating Inclusive Multi-Generational Workplaces

Pity Party Over

This episode of Pity Party Over revolves around the importance of intentional leadership and its impact on team dynamics, especially in the context of diverse generational workforces.

Kathryn Landis, Executive and Team Coach and Professor of C-Suite Leadership at New York University, emphasizes the need for leaders to understand and address the unique needs and values of different generations, particularly Gen Z. She highlights the importance of aligning these needs with organizational goals while creating a culture of psychological safety and transparency.

Listen to the episode on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platform to learn how to navigate generational differences and understand the significance of transparency and purpose-driven work for engaging Gen Z employees.

How do you leverage a multi-generational workplace? Share your story!

Subscribe to Pity Party Over for more insightful episodes. Questions? Email Stephen Matini or send him a message on LinkedIn.

#KathrynLandis #Stephen Matini #PityPartyOver #Alygn #WorkplaceCulture #GenerationalDifferences #GenZ #EmployeeEngagement #PsychologicalSafety #LeadershipDevelopment #PurposeDrivenWork #IntentionalLeadership

TRANSCRIPT

Stephen Matini - I'm curious to ask you, how did you get to human development?

Kathryn Landis: You know, I was first exposed to this thing called coaching, when I was in business school. I went to Northwestern University in Chicago and I took a class around personal leadership and coaching, and I really enjoyed it, but I was already on this track to go into marketing. And fast forward 10, 15 years, I had a boss at a large Fortune 500 company that was not supportive of the company's parental leave policy.

And so when I had my son, this leader made my life miserable. I thought to myself, and I thought back to that class, had this leader had coaching, had this leader had support, I'm sure she didn't want to show up the way that she was showing up.

I got into this because I don't want anyone to ever have the same experience that I had. I want to help leaders get to the next level of greatness. And I want them to empower and inspire their teams and become the best versions of themselves and work in life.

Stephen Matini: Do you have a favorite client? Like, do you prefer to work with teams? Do you prefer to coach people one-on-one?

Kathryn Landis: I think where I'm at my best is when I'm coaching the leader one-on-one and their team. So we're doing both. So with the leader, helping that person think about, you know, how do they want to show up as a leader? How do they want to create followership? How do they want to communicate their vision?

And then with the team, helping them to really operate most effectively and make agreements amongst each other and really think about how they want to create those working norms to be the best team they can be.

Because everyone has to go to work. Everyone's been on bad teams. Think about the worst team ever been on. I mean, I'm getting like negative feelings right now just thinking about that. It could be at work, it could be at school, you know, it could be your softball league versus the best team you've been on.

Wow, being a part of that best team really just changes your outlook, changes how you show up, what you're able to accomplish. And so if I can really help the leader as long with their team, that's where I think really making major progress and really able to make a major impact.

Stephen Matini: So I have a theory about teams, and it's not based on any theory. I believe that the team leader is vital, you're like the orchestra director, you set the tone. However, the team and the chemistry within the team seems to have a life on its own. Sometimes you are lucky, you get teams that for whatever the reason, things flow. It's fun. And sometimes no matter how hard you try, the team seems to really feel heavy. So the question to you is, is it always possible to turn things around in a team?

Kathryn Landis: I would say it's always possible, but you also have to think about, do you have the right people on the team? Do you have people that have the right skill sets? And are they able to work together?

So you can have diverse perspectives, but they can't work together, then it's not useful. Is their work interdependent in a way that motivates them to collaborate effectively? And is there a compelling purpose for the team? Do people know why the team exists, what their priorities are, and what the impact is to the customer or to the organization.

I find that a lot of teams that are dysfunctional, there's not a compelling purpose for the team. People don't know why the team exists. There's maybe not the right people on the bus, or their work is not interdependent. There's just a group of people that are reporting to the same leader. So you really need those essential conditions in order to have an effective team.

Stephen Matini: You know, “the right people on the bus” should be the title of this episode.

Kathryn Landis: Yeah, something like that.

Stephen Matini: As if it happened to you that often team members say, we do not know where we are going. Why do you think that happens? How can it be?

Kathryn Landis: I haven't observed that as much. Maybe it's by virtue of my work. But for sure, an organization would have a more engaged and motivated workforce that they had a vision for the organization of where they want to be in three to five years, if it was motivational, if it was inspiring.

And then that trickles down to what each team or department does. And then from each team or department, it trickles down to each individual. Why are you showing up to work? You know What's the contribution? It doesn't matter if you're in the accounting department or in sales, you're all driving towards this goal that hopefully is something that ladders up to something bigger than oneself. It has purpose.

Because even if you think, hey, I'm working in an accounting firm, you're still helping a customer. Maybe you're helping small business owners making better decisions. So how can you take that mission and make it compelling and purposeful for your employees?

So they're not just showing up for a paycheck, they're showing up to really change lives.

Stephen Matini: Have you ever seen within an organization that has a specific culture that may necessarily foster transparency or full trust, have you ever noticed the existence of what I call islands of happiness? I mean, somehow there's one team that seems to work more efficiently than others.

Kathryn Landis: Well, a lot of your happiness, as much research would suggest, is based on your immediate boss. So if your immediate boss is able to create those conditions for what Amy Edmondson would call psychological safety, if they're able to motivate and inspire other team members, yes, there can absolutely be islands of happiness.

But I think that at a more senior level, whoever is looking after the organization, that certainly is areas for concern. So is there someone who's being mindful of the discrepancy or the variance between the teams?

Stephen Matini: You have been working with a lot of teams and different leaders. As of today, teams are very diverse, you know, often comprise different generations. Based on what you have observed, what would you say they are the main competencies that a good leader should have to lead the team effectively?

Kathryn Landis: So I think that we're in a unique time where you can have five generations at work. And I'm in a unique position where a lot of my clients are baby boomers or Gen X, as we call it in the US, or Gen Z or younger millennials. And there are very different expectations in terms of how one should show up in the workplace and that makes them work in life.

A lot of it having to do with their own life experiences. And, you know, the Gen X and boomers do not understand the Gen Z and the younger millennials and vice versa. I see it with my students. I also teach at NYU. So a lot of my master's students are Gen Z. And it's very different.

I had a student say to me, I just want to find a job where I can be there for six months and really contribute. You know As myself being an older millennial thinking, six months, after six months, you just know where the bathroom is. You haven't made a contribution. You're just training on boarding, but that's the longevity that folks are looking for.

I think making ... one is creating shared values for that department or team, creating agreements of working norms and how you're all going to show up and communicate at work is so important.

When I say agreements, a lot of people live in the land of expectations, meaning they want someone else to do something. Maybe they tell them what they want them to do, but people inherently wrestle with and they rebuff expectations. But if you can get an agreement with them, so you're both bought in, you ask them, how can I help you to meet this agreement? They're exponentially more likely to do it.

So I think for leaders, what agreements can you make with your team members so that you're all aligned on the critical elements that will support a productive workforce?

Stephen Matini: So if I understood correctly, the difference between expectations and agreements is that agreements are negotiated expectations?

Kathryn Landis: Expectations are one way. It says expectation is, Stephen, I want you to show up at 9:00 a.m. of this podcast. And agreement would be, Stephen, I'd like you to show up at 9:00 a.m. this podcast because this is when it'll be most effectively recorded. How can I help you do that? What's going to keep you from doing that? Nothing. I'm going to be here. Okay. Can we have an agreement that that's what we're going to be doing? Yes, perfect.

Now that's like a very simple example, but it's two way conversation and getting someone to say yes, and also as a leader, asking them what help they need from you in order to accomplish it.

Stephen Matini: So it's more collaborative.

Kathryn Landis: 100% versus just having an expectation in your mind that you either don't communicate or you communicate, but then don't ask the other person what they need from you in order to achieve it.

Stephen Matini: One of the things that I like to use in order to understand different generations is to see all these people, from Baby Boomers to Gen Z as humans that have the same needs. The human brain doesn't evolve as rapidly as our technology, but they come to life facing a different political scenario, different economy, different social situation, and such and such, and so they have to respond to a specific situation.

In your opinion, and this is just in your observation, do you think it's harder for a Gen Z to deal with life than it was, let's say, for me, that I'm Generation Y?

Kathryn Landis: I don't know if I can say harder or less hard, but I will say that research states that Gen Z is as a cohort in a mental health crisis. There's lots of research that indicates that Gen Z is overall depressed, that Gen Z, you know, went through very formative years in a pandemic and are very isolated, the first true digitally native cohorts and haven't had that in-person interaction that a lot of the other generations grew up with and were accustomed to.

So I think harder is difficult to define and to measure, but certainly as it relates to mental health, Gen Z is very much struggling. And that puts the leaders in a difficult position where they're being asked to play multiple roles outside of, you know, strictly that of the supervisor.

Stephen Matini: What would you say that could be the kindest gesture that you could provide to Gen Z?

Kathryn Landis: I don't know about kindest gesture, but I wrote a co-wrote a Harvard Business Review article about helping Gen Z find their place at work. And what we do know is that Gen Z really cares about transparency. This is a generation that has always had information at the fingertips. So to the extent that you can be transparent and explain to them rationale and reasons why, it's very useful.

Also, expecting them to even be open with some formerly taboo topics, such as, you know, salary and compensation, they're talking about it. Transparency is really critically important to them. Perhaps that's the most, the kindest thing, but I also would say vital thing is transparency.

Stephen Matini: Very often in organizations, it's not possible to have the level of transparency. Like from my perspective, it seems that a lot of people struggle a lot with organizational politics, which is this invisible thing happening all the time, you know, understanding who's who, who has power, what you can say, what you cannot say. How do you see Gen Z fitting into this web of politics?

Kathryn Landis: I think Gen Z is really struggling to figure that out. And I think it's amplified by the fact that a lot of them, a lot of folks are remote working or hybrid working.

So you're not getting that, quote unquote, water cooler talk that you would if you're in the office, and you're not getting the mentorship of some of the more seasoned colleagues that you might overhear if you're just, you know, walking by. It's more difficult for Gen Z to find out.

What I've seen organizations do do that ineffective is maybe have like an ERG (Employee Resource Group) for Gen Z so that they group folks can get together and talk about issues that are important to them or topics that are important to them, pairing them up with a mentor that can help them navigate the organization, for example, and bringing folks together in a way that's meaningful.

There's lots of talk about how folks don't want to go back to work. Well, they don't want to go back to work and do the same job that they can do at home. You have to think about what is the purpose of bringing people in the office? How can you make it more intentional? And how can you create relationships, collaboration, moments for interaction that can't be done virtually or online?

Stephen Matini One of the things that my clients struggle the most right now is to be ready in five years from now, 10 years from now, to a demographics within their companies that would be completely different. And one thing they realize is, how can I keep these people? How do I attract the Gen Z? How are they going to be here?

So for anyone who has that issue, you've already pointed out a lot of wonderful things, including on mentoring and such and such. What would you say that are some of the things companies should be really aware of and to be proactive so that they can really create an environment that is ready for Gen Z in the future?

Kathryn Landis: Well, first and foremost, accepting the fact that employer loyalty has changed. Most Gen Z, I was reading some research this past week that upwards of 70% of Gen Z are already thinking about their next job and planning to move the next two years. So accepting the fact that there is not that loyalty and that you have to earn that retention every day. It's a different mindset than that feeling that you're going to be with an employer for five years because that's what you're supposed to be on your resume.

Also, majority of Gen Z want to be their own boss. They want to be entrepreneurs. 90% of Gen Z has either their own business or they have a side hustle or a side gig. So thinking about ways that you can align incentives, understanding what their career goals and aspirations are and how you can keep them engaged and doing it in a very intentional way will be very important.

Stephen Matini: I saw an interview with Jodie Foster, the actress. She's promoting a new, what is it? TV show now? I can't remember the name, anyhow. And at some point, she was joking with the host that she said, Oh, my God, working with Gen Z is so hard. You tell them to show up at nine and they show up at 10. Do you think this is a fair statement?

Kathryn Landis: I think that is based on different people's perspective. And I can't speak for Jodie Foster, but for many people, it's table stakes to say, if your boss tells you to come in at nine, you come in at nine.

For Gen Z, you have had different life experiences than someone of, I'm not sure the age of Jodie Foster, but you know someone else who's grown up in the workforce where you just did what your boss told you to do and it was more an authoritarian style, you know it can be quite shocking. But I would say, you know, to that Gen Z employee, this is why we need to be here in nine. Can we make an agreement about this so that we can achieve X, Y, Z?

And it might seem like you're going out of your way or maybe even a little bit ridiculous, but it'll go a long way to getting that buy-in and creating a more fruitful relationship.

Stephen Matini: So one of the things that I read about you and your experience with Gen Z, you said it that it seems to me that Gen Z are a generation that is a purpose-driven. Would you mind explaining more this concept? Because it seems to me to be very central.

Kathryn Landis: What I mean by purpose-driven is that they want their work to have meaning, to make an impact. You know, they've had a huge impact on politics in the U.S., huge socioeconomic issues. I think Black Lives Matter, you know, gun control. And, you know, they are becoming accustomed to having their voice heard as this up and coming cohort and actually looking to work for and buy from companies that put their money where their mouths at.

Are you actually sustainable? Do you actually promote diversity and inclusion? Are you living the values that you put on your website? And so they're voting with their feet. And I think that that is quite admirable, but also puts maybe some of the other generations under the microscope to really do a lot of the things that they said they would like to do or would do. You know, a fun fact that early 2024, Gen Z is going to eclipse baby boomers in the workplace.

They're only here to stay. So for all those employers out there that are thinking, oh my goodness, how am I going to manage this? You got to start trying. And you know I'm happy to share more information around that. I have a talk around age diversity at work, a talk around how to lead Gen Z is kind of teasers into helping managers and leaders think about how they can most effectively support Gen Z, but also, you know, the more mature workers in there who in their workforce who might be facing ageism or feeling like there might be left out as well. So you have this dichotomy of both ends of the spectrum.

Stephen Matini: Something happened to me recently. I started a program with the company and it was about making everyone more sensitive about age differences, ageism. You know, that was really the topic. And then as we started working with the managers, basically they put together cross-functional teams, you know, and I would facilitate the conversation. But it came out, it came out, well, it doesn't seem to us that it seems to be such a big issue here.

You know, we don't think so, although we understand the importance of preparing and to have a culture that is welcoming that type of generation. But anyhow, reasoning with them, what it came out is this one, that every single time they're able to be more functional in terms of organizational synergy, when that is really strong, that's when they're able to really leverage the strengths of every single generation. Whereas when there's no cross-functional synergy, all these generations, all groups, they become separate. They have difficulty communicating. Have you ever observed something like this in your projects?

Kathryn Landis: Well, I think that there's no cross-functional synergy, as you put it. There's a lot of problems, and it's not just age-related. So things just aren't going well and kind of goes back to my worst team scenario. So when things are going well, maybe the tip of the, you only see the tip of the iceberg, but you don't notice what's going on underneath, right? But you know once you know maybe the company's not going so well, all that stuff that was underneath the water is there. And that's when, you know, the truth comes out about what's really been happening.

Stephen Matini: You work with people and you help them out. How do you preserve your energy?

Kathryn Landis: So actually, I get energized by working with people. I really enjoy helping and supporting people because that's what I feel like is my purpose. You know, that being said, I have to do my own self-care.

For me, that means eating real food, because I have a tendency to get off on and let myself go with, you know, protein bars and protein shakes, which is not good, you know, drinking water and exercising. So I think all those things, if I can be physically healthy, you know, really impacts my mental health so that I can show up to my fullest for my clients.

Stephen Matini: So we talked about a bunch of stuff, you know, a lot of different angles and ideas. Out of everything we said, is there anything in particular that you would say our listeners should be pay attention to?

Kathryn Landis: The first thing that comes to mind is intentionality. So getting clear on how you want to show up as a leader, how you want people to perceive you, and then doing self-reflection to say, am I behaving? Am I showing up in the way that I intend? And I'd also encourage you to solicit feedback.

So do you have what's called a personal board of directors in your personal life, in your colleagues at work that you could get feedback to find out how you are showing up? And then asking for suggestions or advice about how you could improve to become that leader that you envision yourself to be.

Stephen Matini: If someone asked you, what is intentionality to you? How would you define it?

Kathryn Landis: For me, it's being self-aware, you know, being really focused on your behavior, on your mindset, on the way that you are engaging in the world, particularly when you're stressed, right, and all things go by the wayside. That's the moment of truth.

Stephen Matini: And going back to we're talking about Gen Z, as a leader, how can it be intentional about my Gen Z employees?

Kathryn Landis: Yeah, I think it starts from the moment that you're in the interview, you know, to really share what the values are of your team and of the organization, and ensuring that there is, you know, a good fit there, that there are shared values and alignment.

It's important during their onboarding process that Gen Z is connected with the right people and the right tools and resources to feel like they're getting the support that they need, and they're making the agreements that will foster a productive relationship. The more you can do upfront to invest in that relationship, you're paving the way and it will benefit tremendously later on.

Stephen Matini: So maybe to those listeners of this episode who are Gen Z, what would you like to tell them?

Kathryn Landis: Keep it up. Be curious. You know, absolutely. Listen. Know that you can learn from all different people. You can learn what you want, how you want to show up and how you don't want to show up.

And, you know, look for opportunities to find mentors and sponsors. And if you're not sure what that is, Google it. And I am excited for you and your career and what life has in store for you.

Stephen Matini: Oh, thank you, Catherine. I think people are going to feel really good about this. Thank you so much.

Kathryn Landis: Thank you, Stephen. Take good care.