Anna Hopkins, The Closet Lady

A Breast Cancer Diary

My friend Anna Hopkins tells her story on today's podcast episode--a story of Breast Implant Illness that ends in her fully embracing her new breastless and flat chest as a flat fashionista. Please see the links below to learn more about BII and its auto-immune disorders, common among women with breast implants.

Links from today's episode:

Anna's YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/@closetlady?si=73mWb6L4ipUc13fE

Anna's Instagram account:https://www.instagram.com/closetladyflatfashion/

Read about Breast Implant Illness here: https://www.breastcancer.org/treatment/surgery/breast-reconstruction/types/implant-reconstruction/illness/breast-implant-illness

Fierce Flat Forward, Thrivers who Thrift, and Flat Out Love are the facebook Groups that Anna mentioned using herself.

Transcript:

My guest today is Anna Hopkins, my good friend from the flat community. Anna and I met a year ago in October at the Palm Springs flat retreat. And we've been connecting ever since both on the topic of flat and of lobular advocacy. Anna is a retired dental hygienist. She lives in Tucson, Arizona, and she was diagnosed in 2008 with ER positive, stage two, invasive lobular carcinoma, which we haven't talked about too much on the podcast yet. Her initial lumpectomy in 2008 was followed pretty quickly after by a double mastectomy in 2009 and then she went flat, a whole 10 years later in 2019. She goes by “the closet lady” in her videos on both YouTube and Instagram. And so we'll talk a little bit about her work as an advocate for flat fashion. And Anna, I just want to welcome you to the podcast. We've been planning this for so long. Thank you for coming on and telling your story today.

A:

Yes. Thank you so much for having me Kathleen. I so appreciate being able to be here and share a little bit of my journey.

K:

Yeah. So I want to talk about some of your initial diagnosis details and decisions. You happen to have a lumpectomy first, and then you had a real big change of heart quickly after that. And I wanted to hear about that first as you're telling your story today.

A:

I happened to be watching a show and, um, they were talking because it was breast cancer awareness month in October. I thought, Oh, I should, you know, do a self exam. And I did. I was quite surprised when I actually found what felt like a pretty good sized lump to me, and I was somebody that had already had implants in my body. So, um, it was not always easy to do self exams because of those, and they were saline implants at the time, and I had had them, I want to say, for probably about eight years at that time. So I found the lump and went in to have it looked at. They couldn't find it. Um, the radiologist technician could not find it on ultrasound and I kept telling them that there was indeed something there. they eventually brought in the actual radiologist who had to do the ultrasound themselves and they did verify, yes, that there was indeed something there. And I, from that point, opted instead of having like a needle biopsy, I had begun my research immediately and, and, you know, understood there was like false positives and negatives with needle biopsies and that either way the lump needed to come out. So I just went immediately to the surgical route and said, please remove the lump. So they removed the lump and that's when the diagnosis came back. Really, relatively within two days that it was indeed positive for breast cancer and you know, lobular breast cancer is what they told me when I went into the office, you know, and then things kind of become a whirlwind really quickly. I was assured when I found my team that it was okay to take some time to kind of do a little research because apparently they said that the lump probably had been there for about three to five years they also, I'll never forget this statement that one of the things they said, they said, Oh, it's, it's a great thing that you had implants in your body because it helped push the lump forward so you were able to palpate it and feel it. So I was kind of immediately like, cause I, I kind of felt benign about implants before like it was no big deal. I had nursed my children and my breast, I felt, you know, less than as a woman and I had wanted, you know, to make them look better again. So that's why I got the implants. So I was thinking, Oh, these things are wonderful. It even helped me discover my own breast cancer, you know. I also came into that at the same time having a long history of allergies that seemed to be continuously building and more problems. I did have a great oncologist, I will say, um, he did tell me because of my allergies and things that I had at the time that he wanted to kind of confer with, you know, he was on a board and he wanted to talk to the board. That was kind of, you know, doctors from all over the states, and he wanted to sit down with them because of my long history of allergies and rare kind of conditions already. He also told me at the time he said, you know, I'm kind of concerned that possibly the chemotherapy would be, you know, would be the thing to kill you before the cancer even. So that kind of stuck with me. There were just some, you know, some statements that stuck with me. I mean, social media groups were in their infancy and I didn't belong to any at the time and research online was not as perfected as it is now. And just not the amount of information available, not that it's always accurate, but it was harder to kind of weed through and find anything anyway. At the time it was pretty adamant that it usually will mirror image and the other breast, you know, if you have lobular, that kind of thing. So I was like, okay, which was a really strong point for me to, to advocate for a mastectomy on both sides. Even though I was being told by my team, you know, let's just do the lumpectomy, you know, and if anything, you could take the one breast off. And then my oncologist at the time, though, I will give him this credit again, said, you know, there's really only a 2 percent benefit if you're going to do this chemotherapy and you need to weigh if that's going to be beneficial enough for you. He was seemed to be a little more on the cutting edge kind of information about lobular where he told me that the benefits weren't great and also given my allergies. And he said, and he literally looked me in the face, which I still to this day feel so grateful for, and he said, you know, I have to tell you that the protocol is that you need to do chemotherapy. He said, but I want you to know that I'm not going to lose any sleep if you choose not to. And it was kind of like giving me permission to do what I felt was already the best thing. And it also kind of. Um, not only empowered me, but solidified the information I had found.

K:

And your tumor was, you said two centimeters. So it wasn't a tiny tumor. It was definitely palpable. So that's interesting.

A:

Yeah. It was 2. 5 centimeters. Yeah.

K:

And your, your impression is that it was because it was lobular and lobular doesn't respond as well to chemo. That is the reason why your oncologist said that?

A: Yes. And there was very little information about that back then, but there was something, because I, I had really gone down some holes and, you know, finding, I just, it's just what I do. So, you know. found everything I possibly could and I'm grateful that I was able to find something on that. K:

Sure. So you decided on a double mastectomy against their wishes. They were trying to encourage you to at most do a single mastectomy. How did you land on the double mastectomy decision?

A: I did not want to approach, um, fearful of, um, a mammogram every year. And is it back? And then I've got to go through this whole procedure again. To me, it just made more sense to take them both off. I mean, it, it to me felt like a risk that I just wasn't willing to live with, you know, in a more, it didn't feel peaceful to my, uh, sense of what thriving would feel like.

K: Yeah. And so did you get implants at that time when you had the double mastectomy?

A: Yes. And I, and I really have to say, this is a part that I really felt a lot of shame in because, you know, feeling so, you know, interested in, you know, research and really wanting answers and knowing how important health is, you know, with the way we feed our body and all those other things. I felt really shameful that I somehow missed the component of implants and the toxicities that might've existed within them. You know, and then I also try to remember to be kind to myself that remember I was given these messages that, you know, hey, it saved my life. It helped me find the breast cancer. And so I, you know, had a friend who was actually a surge, a plastic surgeon of all things and his mother had gone through breast cancer and he himself assured me how safe these were now because they'd been so extensively researched and they'd just been re released and I should feel so good about having him in my body now. And he showed me, you know, how he could cut them in half and they no longer would ooze everywhere in your body. You know, he went through the whole thing and this was even a friend of mine and I was being told this. And so I really bought it hook, line, and sinker and didn't think further through it. Yeah.

K:

So you mentioned that you had some shame after that, after you had received the implants, how long did it take you to learn about breast cancer illness and the toxicity?

A:

My gosh. For years. So, you know, in my, my, to get the implants reconstruction, my body, you remember I had implants prior and I think I was accumulating issues. You know, my allergies were increasing all these things. And then they'd name, of course, put the silicone implants in my body. Cause they're like, you have just skin left, there's no fat, you know, these aren't going to be as ripply. It's going to be better overall. So they put, you know, the expanders in my body. My body rejected these expanders. Initially, they told me they would be in my body for maybe three months, you know, and they constantly were, you know, putting more fluid in, more fluid. Cause I had all this extra skin to fill up where, you know, my breast had been before. And the skin kept dying and blackening. I kept having infections. They kept, you know, swabbing them. They couldn't figure out what the infections were. I mean, I was miserable and yet they pumped it full of fluid all the time with all that going on. And then they would do surgery and cut out the dead tissue and continue on and sew me up. And it became so tight with the expanders. And they kept assuring me that, Oh, it'll be better when we get them out. And you know, we'll put the implants in and all will be well. I had that for nine months. They took the implant, you know, the expanders out, put in the implants and, you know, subsequently you can imagine I started the journey with of course, hearing from my oncologist, Oh, they look great. This is a wonderful result. You know, and I'm thinking, I look disfigured and horrendous, but they kept, you know, I looked great in clothes and that seemed to be all that mattered to everybody. And then I was, you know, looking like a normal woman. And, you know, also. newly married, you know, for a year, I felt the pressure of like I needed to make sure I had breasts for my husband. I continued for 10 years with incredible pain and I would always go in and say they're so tight. They're uncomfortable and they would always assure me. Oh, it's fine. You're gonna, you know, you're aging. You're gonna have other issues. You know, it's not the implants. They're safe. I kept, you know, at one point within the last couple years, I kept saying it doesn't feel right. Like I feel like something's wrong and you know, once I decided on the explant, finally, you know, at the 10 year mark, I was like, and I knew, you know, they're only supposed to be good for 10 years. They kept assuring me, Oh, they can stay forever, though the data said otherwise. And I said, I had to then, you know, of course go through the battle of, “I want these out of my body and I want them out at all costs.” You know, I didn't know anything about flat closure. There was no information that I had found about it other than that people that were dying and had no option to live were kind of, you know, flat because they were, you know, had given little time left on earth. And I said, you know, I don't care if I'm disfigured, please get these out of my body. I knew that I was ill and I was very ill and it did not match my lifestyle. Like there's no reason I should feel the way I did and have the issues I had when I lived the way I did. I mean, I'm such a, I mean, a lot of people might think it rigid, but I mean, I'm not someone who is waivers and cheats or, you know, my lifestyle was so clean and so healthy. So I knew that that was the last thing and I wanted them out, so I didn't know about breast implant illness still even at that point but I did find a surgeon that told me about it.

K:

So you were probably really shocked after the explant then after you took your implants out, how well you started to feel, I imagine.

A: It was, it was immediate. I had no expectation. I did not know, you know, of course, I'm still thinking, well, this may be better. I don't know. Immediately my range of motion was incredibly improved and I was still recovering under anesthesia and you know, wounds and things. I could already feel the difference. People would see me and they would say, “What? I mean, your eyes,” like I didn't realize how the physical toll it had taken on my body. They would say, It looks, have you lost weight? I mean, it looked like I lost 30 pounds. I was swollen from the inflammation in my body from those implants. The surgeon at the time who ended up operating on me was wonderful microsurgeon. And he did tell me about breast implant illness and he said, I do believe that you have this. So yeah, it was miraculous how much better I felt. Yeah. It was miraculous. I felt like a whole new human being, even though I still had some chronic issues, I kind of felt like I was going back to the me before I ever had implants on my body. And it was, just so amazing. K:

So I want to hear about your experience with flat closure, not just the surgery and the outcome and how it looked, but how you felt going into it and then how you felt later coming out of it. A:

I was scared. I didn't know anybody else that was flat. I didn't have any pictures. Um, I didn't have any information. I just knew it was what I needed and I expected to come out disfigured and that I was just going to be okay with that. so I, you know, that was scary. Part of that journey that really stood out for me was I was referred to my general practitioner when I was trying to find a plastic surgeon that would remove them because my oncologist office. You know, didn't want me to do it. And nor the breast surgeon that had initially operated on me. so, they referred me, um, to my general practitioner, where I just went in for, I don't even know what I was going in for, just to check up. And they were, basically they gave me a psychological evaluation, which I was completely shocked and astounded, and did not even realize what was happening until They left the room and I just, I didn't even have, and I didn't have a voice to even ask them or question them. I just walked out of the office, stunned, honestly. Um, and then I found, you know, a space, a space of anger thinking what is going on, but it did not deter me from my determination to get them out of my body. Um, so it's kind of like that, you know, advocacy for myself kicked in again, where I knew what was better for me and I was really going to stick with it. like when I was first diagnosed, but I had missed this on it. So. the right surgeon through a couple referrals and talked to him at length about wanting them out of my body. He did kind of consider if I had enough fat, you know, to kind of do the DIEP flap and all that stuff. He said, you do not have enough fat to do that and it would only give you at best a size A. I said, listen, I don't want that. It's not worth it for me at all. I don't want that surgery. I'm willing, you know, whatever it takes to be disfigured. And so he just agreed he would do the best he could and we left it at that. When I awoke, you know, it was astounding to me, I was a different person already. Um, it was astounding to me when I saw, you know, my scars for the first time. I have pictures of when I first saw them and the drains coming out of my body. And it was hard. I mean, I had been so defined by my breasts as a woman, you know, not only was it something that, you know, people considered me so, you know, voluptuous and beautiful with, I also, for me, what was the most difficult thing for me and part of my journey was the crying of losing my breasts when I went through it initially, because I nursed my girls, my children with them. So to me, it was a really hard letting go of something that was so important to me that nurtured my children. I was driving into my convertible car of all things. And the rain started pouring down and it was like, you know, kind of like, you know, the universe speaking to me and allowing me to grieve it fully. My nipples hardened at the time because it was chilly and it was rainy. And I started bawling even harder because I thought I'll never know what this experience is. experiences like again to feel you know, something that's so natural we don't even think about it about our nipples hardening for whatever reason. It was just really a huge grief process, and I still feel teary when I talk about it, because it was powerful. You know how important breasts are to our, our, you know, definition of ourselves sometimes as women for many reasons. So yeah, that was a big experience. But leaving after having a flat closure and seeing my, my scars for the first time, I kind of remember feeling this surprising sense of acceptance that I didn't expect to have. And again, I hadn't found the flat communities or anything like that. And I remember feeling powerful because my daughter was seeing me as a powerful woman still with no breasts. And she's a young, young adult woman at this time. And she had lived with me through breast cancer and it was very traumatic for her. And now as a young woman to see me make this other decision and to feel powerful as a woman still. And I felt like this power of this little girl that I once was who was never defined by breasts or anything when you're a little girl. You're just a little girl. You're just Anna. And I felt like just Anna again. I can't really put words to it still. It was so powerful and it kind of is what carried me through the challenges of the healing, you know, the lumps and bumps, the redness, you know, the things that you deal with, the taking of the drains out, all the things that are hard, like how do I dress? All those things. So yeah, it was super powerful. And yeah, then I remember thinking, gosh, I should, maybe I should go in and see what it's like to have a prosthetic. And I remember spending a few hours, the women were lovely. They showed me all these different shapes and sizes and all these things. And I thought, When I remember putting them on, I remember thinking, gosh, these feel so weird and awkward. And I feel like they didn't feel heavy, but I was like, everybody's going to know these aren't real breasts. It's interesting how your mind does these things. I wanted nothing to do with them, but I still took them home thinking, how could I ever feel comfortable in these? What if they fall out? What if they move? Like it was such a weird thing for me. And I also didn't feel comfortable walking around flat at the time. So it was really kind of, you know at home and healing and trying to find my place in the world now.

K: Yeah. So I first encountered your body four years after you went flat. And I remember my first thoughts. So I was there when you first took your shirt off in public for the first time at the breast cancer walk in Palm Springs last year, I was standing right next to you. I don't know if you remember that, but it was really.

A:

I don’t! It was like a blur!

K: Yeah, it was super profound for me seeing someone else do that for the first time. So, um, it was an emotional moment and I remember thinking how beautiful your body was. It was very well healed because, you know, it had been that many years. But you didn't have any dog ears. You didn't have any ripples. You know, your chest was really beautifully done. I thought. Did you have the same feeling once you did experience all the photos on Instagram and compared yourself with other women? Did you have some pride in the outcome that you had received or did you have other surgeries to make it look more flat?

A: Yeah, no, I feel like I was so fortunate somehow in finding the surgeon that I did and that he kind of under promised and over delivered and I was surprised when I began seeing, um, others like myself, which was so healing to is such a big part of my healing journey, and I didn't feel critical of what they had, and I didn't feel pity, but I started seeing because I think it was before there was like legislation and things to really kind of, you know, protect us and to give us options that we deserve, you know, as women to have our body look a certain way instead of just being at the mercy of whatever the physician could do or thought was best. So I did feel, “wow, I really am fortunate, you know, that my body healed so well.” And then I was fortunate with all the damage that had been done to my chest, that he still was able to repair me the way he did. And I do feel, yeah, that I'm very lucky and fortunate to have outcome that I've had. Yeah, because I can imagine going through the journey myself how much you know more of a challenge that presents when you're left with all this extra skin and you're you know, you're wondering why like why why does it look like this? Did it have to be this way? You know, like, yeah. So I think it's, it's, it's really, yeah. lucky thing for me, honestly. Yeah.

K: Yeah. So I want to hear about the transition from that moment when you went flat to becoming who you are now, which is kind of a, an advocate in the public eye, like really, really advocating for not just flatness, but a feminine brand of flatness. So we're not just, seeing you on your videos, talking about accepting your new body, but you are flaunting your new body in a very fashion forward feminine way, which is not something we see in the flat community a whole lot. So where did you get that energy for this new kind of advocacy and body positivity?

A: I wish I knew. I feel like it has been such an evolution for me. Like when I started this journey, I could never have imagined this being the place that I would land. So yeah, it's been so interesting to just kind of watch. I feel like I've grown so much on this journey and I really, again, being a painfully shy person and initially when I first started taking pictures, you know, there's some people that stand out for me in the community that kind of gave me a lift and empowerment and, you know, to try to maybe be flat for the day or, you know, or to try things on and you know, I love that we could share fashion and like, how do you wear something and what do you feel good in? And, and I started like, I had never even taken a selfie prior to this ever, like I was not that person and I was never in pictures because I was always taking pictures of everyone in my family. So it was, you know, I didn't consider myself photogenic. People say, “Oh, you take awful pictures.” So it was really like a thing for me to like do this and I would do it in my closet, which is crazy. I've always loved clothes and I've always loved fashion, but I never thought I was particularly good at it. I always thought I was just kind of weird and I liked all kinds of strange things. And, you know, kind of was like a way to like embody maybe a character because I'm shy. And so I could feel powerful in that moment of like, Oh, I'm this today. Even if I feel quiet and shy, this is a way for me to speak without, you know, and I feel, I feel powerful in a way. And plus I'm artistic, so I think there's a piece with that. So yeah, kind of like having a space where I already had a lot of clothing and accessories and things and going through the transition of like, should I just get rid of everything or do I, you know, so I started like that thinking I need to get rid of everything. Then I kind of stopped and I slowed down and I, during my healing and kept everything. And then I started trying things on when I was seeing other people online and I would learn to take a picture of myself with the help of other people in my closet. And so one of the flatties started calling me, “Oh, look, it's, it's cause a lady again” because I was in my closet taking my picture, you know? Nobody needs to look like me or to have my same journey or any of that. But I wanted people to realize like, gosh, no clothes can really be powerful. Like you can feel good in anything you wear or you can feel awful, you know, and it kind of can enhance how you're already feeling in the day. So I kind of just. You know, I went through that journey myself and realized how powerful my clothing was for me and how I discovered that. Gosh, I hated ruffles before. And wow, I really like ruffles now, especially in the beginning because, you know, I was still really struggling. Like, gosh, I feel like even though, you know, people will say I have a really nice closure, I still have like lumps and dips in my mind and I didn't feel so great when my tee shirt was really tight initially. And I like wanted to feel a little better. And so I would wear something with ruffles and I was like surprised. I was like, wow, like I really liked the way I look and feel in this. I can do this. And it just kind of, you know, again, continued to snowball from there. And I kind of discovered like a whole new sense of style for myself, too, with things I never had worn before and it no longer was about appealing to like the male gaze, it was appealing to my inner sense of who I am. Yeah.

K: Yeah. And I noticed that who you are and what you need changes from day to day. And I love that, that you give us permission to wear prosthetics when we're feeling the need to, um, not be flat visible or flat advocates in a visible way. Um, but you also seem to have a lot of joy and maybe—I don't know if this is true, but I noticed that more and more as the months and years go by, you have a lot of joy and pride in your flatness and your natural body shape now. Is that true? Or am I just making that up?

A: Yeah. I really have like embraced my body and I actually love being flat more now than I ever did because I journeyed through wearing prosthetics more, you know, at the time, but I also always feel like it's such an important message because I lived that journey to never like diminish or discriminate within our own community because I don't think there's a right way to do flat. And I think there are opportunities to really be visible that are so important. And if you can participate in that, gosh, that's powerful, you know, but I think everybody's ready in their own time and some may never be ready, but I want people to know there's lots of options out there. So I want to share with you what I've discovered and which ones I liked and why, but I also, I really do. I love my body now. And I am so, so amazed at its healing capacity. I am so grateful that I'm alive. I'm grateful that I can share, you know, what my flat closure looks like if it's going to help just one other woman or person make that experience easier or help them on their discovery of what choice is best for them. You know, it's just, it's a good feeling to walk around flat and to, own it, really just own it and know that I'm actually, I have never felt more feminine and more womanly. And I know that must be so hard to like imagine. And I don't want people to have to lose their breasts to discover that. But I am telling you, that is my experience. Like, wow, I've never felt more woman in my life without breasts than I did far more than I did with breasts.

K: I want to hear more about that. What do you think that is rooted in? Do you feel like there is something about your breasts that were traumatic for you or associated with trauma or?

A: I do. I do feel like breasts can really be traumatizing for us women because I think, you know, societally and without, you know, blaming any one particular component of society, I do think the message is, is that the shape of your breasts, the size of your breasts define how sexually you are and how sexually appealing you are and how fertile you are. And you know all the things that seem to be what define whether a woman has value in our society when she's young and then as she ages, you know, and how perky, can she keep them and all these, you know, these, these horrible messages that we get. And what gets lost in translation is like, who are we as human beings, right? And what is our purpose here and how much we have to offer in the, in our wisdom along the journey. I feel like it's almost like you go through all these hard things and like, it's like the pinnacle. If you're lucky enough to get to live to old age and have that moment where all those things you've gone through give you, you, you've like reached that moment of like, wow, like this is really where I wanted to be all along to embrace, you know, the beauty of actually being a woman has nothing to do with breasts. We are so much more than our body parts and I'm and it's so sad to me that that gets lost. I've really, you know, hope that somehow in my mission of empowering people with clothing and stuff that we get that I get to like help young girls or whoever realized that, wow, you know, you are not the way you dress because you can change that every day from moment to moment and your breasts do not define you. You are so much more than that.

K: Thank you. That's such such an important message. I really value that. I relate to that. I want to ask you about the place where you live because I visited you there last time I saw you. We were both in Tucson. We were at a retreat and then we went out to dinner and talked about lobular advocacy. And I noticed when I'm in Arizona, it's definitely more conservative state than where I live here on the West coast. Um, but it's also a little more like a feminista kind of place. Like you're, if you're a woman, you're expected to dress like a woman. You're expected to spend money on your clothes and look a certain way…. which is kind of fun in some ways. Like for those of us who've grown up in a super casual environment, it's kind of fun to dress up. And I enjoyed that part of my visit. But how do you feel people respond to you when they do notice your flatness in public where you live? Do you feel like there's an acceptance or do you feel like you're really challenging the societal norms or the social norms?

A: I definitely feel like I'm challenging the societal norms in my community where I live. I think it's, I, I've never, you know, I don't see, even though it's not a huge city, it's a big enough city. I don't see people walk, anybody else walking around flat. I don't, I don't have people approaching me and saying anything ever, asking me questions. I do have people that look at me and it's not like a look of that where I'm feeling accepted. I think there's a lot of questioning that goes into it. I think you're so right about, you know, community and acceptance and you know, whether it's more liberal or conservative, you know, areas that you live in. It really does. And it is challenging, but it also kind of makes me more determined to, you know, kind of challenge that because I think it's super important to be seen that, you know, as a woman, women don’t need to look a certain way, right? To be a woman and to be embraced as such, or however they want to define themselves. Yeah. So it's challenging for sure in my community. Yeah, I wish it were different, but I think I always consider each of us like, you know, like the drop of water that, you know, the gazillions that it takes to make up the ocean. I think each one of us, we think that we can't make a difference, but I think without each little drop, it never is going to make a difference. So I'm just one of the drops and I'm sure there'll be more. And hopefully, you know, that change, you always want to embody, in my opinion, the change you want to see in the world. So that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah.

K: And I know you have a local flat group, Arizona Flatties, that you're a big part of. Has that made you guys as Flatties a little more tight or bonded, do you think? Or how does that change the dynamic of your flat group locally?

A: Gosh, I always feel, yeah, I definitely feel an automatic tightness and bondedness whenever I'm around other flatties. It's just such an unspoken, amazing connection. Um, I think that is so important and healing always, no matter where you are in the journey. It's always so reinforcing, but I wish we all lived closer. I think, you know, living out in Arizona, things are quite spread out. So, you know, getting together is, you know, It's a challenge and doesn't happen as often as I would like by any means, but yeah, the times we do meet up, it's always a beautiful, experience. Yeah. It's like hard to put words to.

K: There's one other part of your story that I wanted to touch on today. Um, there's so many things we could touch on, but one part of your story that I really relate to is, the decision not to do chemo. Um, for me, I wasn't really pushed to do it. Nobody even asked me to do it. But, the result of that is feeling a little bit different within the breast cancer community at large as flatties we feel different because we don't have the implants, but as somebody who didn't do chemo or radiation, you can also feel like a little bit of an imposter syndrome. And you've spoken to that before. Would you be willing to talk a little bit about what that experience has been like for you?

A: Sure. And I think it, I always am really careful and I haven't had this conversation much because I don't want to ever convey that my choices. are something that should be, you know, across the board for everybody, or that I'm against, you know, current, you know, advanced medical treatments or, you know, protocols because there's so much benefit to them often. But when I chose to not do the chemotherapy, I really, when you're, when you're going through all that stuff and there's so much being thrown at you, you know, one of the things often I was like, then there's this cancer group and you should go here and you should do this. And I remember going to a couple of those meetings initially when I was going through the surgeries and things. And I, I didn't feel like I could fit in because my story wasn't something I could tell or talk about or that anybody could relate to. And I, and I do, remember someone actually telling me like, you know, “you're gonna die” because I didn't choose chemotherapy,

K:

Oh wow.

A: That was really scary to me because I didn't have anybody else to say, “but look at them, they lived, right? And they chose this too.” So it was really isolating and really a challenge to really stick to what feels true to you. And I think that's where, you know, community and support is so important because, you know, it is so important to be embraced and to feel okay about your choices too. So yeah, it was really, really challenging and it still is honestly all these years later. Yeah. I know very few people that have, you know, chosen to not do chemotherapy and maybe there's more and they're just not willing to talk about it either and I can completely understand why because I think often, you know, there's a thing with that like that somehow that I'm trying to get a message across that it's not safe to do chemotherapy or it's the wrong thing to do and that is not my message on any level, but it is also a choice to not do chemotherapy. You know, and yeah, it would be great if there was more support surrounding that. Yeah. K: It's very polarizing. You know, we hear about Elle McPherson in the news right now and how she's trying to be transparent about her process and getting a lot of abuse for it. There's so much fear around cancer and legitimately. I mean, I just lost my mom very suddenly from metastatic breast cancer, so can't be light about it. But it is true that more and more and my podcast is definitely showing this: These days, a lot of doctors are not jumping right into chemo for every patient. There are certain patients that don't get chemo these days where maybe back in the time of your diagnosis, it was more normative for every single patient to get chemo. Certainly with lobular breast cancer, we're seeing more and more data showing that chemo is not as effective. And that's scary because you have less tools in your arsenal. We don't want that. But at the same time, I think there needs to be a space and an acceptance for those who both chose not to do chemo and who were not even asked to do chemo. And a place for us to say that we still have other experiences that are similar to the breast cancer community in terms of fear of recurrence. I mean, that's the thing that we all share that is probably the most intense and the most fear producing, um, that is something that unites all of us, regardless of what our bodies look like or whether we went through a certain treatment that most women go through when they have breast cancer. So I just want to reiterate that. I'll probably talk more about that in my next episode, reflecting on our conversation here as well, but I just want to affirm you as a legitimate member of our community in recovery from breast cancer even though you didn't do chemo and that probably was more isolating and scary for you not to do chemo than it is for those of us who are not even asked to do it. So I honor your choice. I understand. It's really interesting that you associate the allergies and the sensitivities that your body had at the time of your diagnosis—now, I think I'm hearing that you're associating it with your implants that you had prior to being diagnosed, which is really interesting because we think of breast implant illness as an autoimmune disorder, and it sounds like you're, you're identifying now that you probably had some autoimmune problems that were arising because of your first set of implants, um, and I'm seeing you nodding, so that is, that is true then.

A: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I think definitely contributed hugely, if not fully, to that.

K: And your perspective is so different now, looking back and being educated by the Internet. I mean, we just have so many more pieces of information and stories at our fingertips as patients now than we ever had before. So, of course, we never heard of breast implant illness before. And, of course, now that is so much more accessible, and we're so grateful for that as a community. Thank you, Anna, for telling your story here. I want to hear all of your handles at all of the social places. Cause I want flatties and people who are considering going flat to know about you and see you in your beauty and your closet there on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube. So share where we can find you there.

A:

Thank you so much for having me too. Yes. You can find me if you happen to be part of the FLAT community or you're looking for a FLAT community on Facebook, you can find the FLAT groups there. I'm certainly active in those groups where you can see me post there. I post, I post more frequently now on Instagram. I try to do it daily and that is at “closet lady, flat fashions.” And then the same thing on YouTube, I have a YouTube channel, “closet lady fat fashions” And I am kind of undergoing some transition there, but I am still posting there, but I'll, I'll get more regular again there. I'm trying to figure out how I want that to look my channel. So yeah.

Some of the flat communities that I like to participate in: there's a community called Flat Out Love. There is Thrivers Who Thrift. There's Fierce Flap Forward. Um, and there, there are others. And, you know, from the, some in the very beginning stages, just all of them the journey and others, you know, kind of early on in it and others longer down the path like myself and in between. Yeah,

K:

Yeah, I want to echo that. That fierce clap forward was a super crucial place for me in the early part of my journey, just finding what a Goldilocks mastectomy could look like and how to expect that to turn out and what to ask for. So everyone goes there when they're really new to the community and new to the idea of flatness, looking for information.

A: I am. Yeah, working to kind of understand social media more and do more and more. But yeah, am working towards that. Yeah, it's exciting and Yeah. I hope to be able to inspire people to just really embrace who they are and love their bodies, which is always a challenge for all of us, whether we have breasts or not. But I really want that for everybody. all deserve to love ourselves like that for sure. K:

Thank you, Anna. And does, uh, Arizona flatties have a presence on Facebook or where do people look for Arizona flatty? A:

Yeah, if you're from Arizona or anywhere in Arizona, you can easily look up Arizona flatties and, you know, request to become a member there. There's always a few questions when you enter these groups to ensure privacy and to make sure that you meet the criteria to be someone that can be in the group and safely and protect everybody's privacy as well. And then, I think it, I'm not sure if other groups to it, but I know flat out love does it. There's kind of something called like a flatty map and you're able to kind of put in a zip code. I think you don't have to put your full address, just a zip code and it kind of will bring up this amazing map that kind of shows you all over the United States and even further out. I think maybe some of them now where you can kind of locate, cause we have members that are from across the world too, like where you can locate other flatties so that you can kind of connect, you know, if you feel like it or whenever you're ready, you know that there's others you can meet up with, you know, and kind of.

K: Yeah, I love that. That just happened this year. I think it just blossomed all over. Like, um, Stand Tall. AFC has a flatty map as well, where we can learn where the local flat groups are. So I'll talk more about that in my next episode for sure. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thanks so much for spending an hour chatting with me today about your story. Thank you so much for having me, Kathleen.