Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 - Leadership is Personal

THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

To influence for good, character paired with strong leadership skills is paramount. Brig.
Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 brings the two together in Ep. 8 of Long Blue Leadership.

----more----

SUMMARY

Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born discusses the importance of character and leadership in the Air Force Academy's mission. She shares her background and career, including her time as the Dean of Faculty at the Academy. The General reflects on her class reunion experience and the impact of her family's military background. She explores the concept of leaders being born vs. made and highlights the value of curiosity and courage in leadership. Gen. Born emphasizes the importance of seeking help and mentorship and shares recommended readings for developing leadership skills.

OUR FAVORITE QUOTES

"Character and leadership are paramount for Air Force Academy graduates to influence for good."

"I think that if I were to say there's two really important takeaways, those for me have been, be curious, be more curious. And that is just really asking a lot of questions."

"I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow."

"I think there's that keeping the both and in the integration of that is what helped me in some of those tough decisions. I mean, I remember having to take a security clearance away from a lieutenant colonel, for all the right reasons, but trying, you know, that person then was going to lose their position in the Air Force, because it required a security clearance. And, and it wasn't a situation that I put that person in, right, they put themselves in that position, but what I didn't want to do was deliver the news in a way that then the individual would feel like they have nothing left right to or would ultimately, you know, take their life, right, that always was present to say, uh, don't want this person to go away with anything other than, you know, your life is not over."

"I think courage, you know, the root word of courage is heart. And I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow."

- Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83

SHARE THIS EPISODE

FACEBOOK | LINKEDIN | TWITTER | EMAIL

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction: Character and Leadership

01:22 General Bourne's Background and Career

05:36 Early Life and Decision to Attend the Air Force Academy

08:19 Becoming the Dean of Faculty at the Air Force Academy

11:49 Challenges and Lessons as Dean

22:59 Discovering Leadership Abilities

24:24 Lessons from Friction Moments

26:19 Pivoting and Overcoming Challenges

27:49 Best Attributes of Leaders

29:46 Seeking Help and Mentorship

32:06 Balancing Compassion and Difficult Decisions

34:26 Family's Influence on Leadership

38:12 Developing Leadership Skills: Curiosity and Courage

40:04 Purpose and Passion

41:53 Recommended Readings

44:42 Conclusion

GEN. BORN'S BIO

Dana H. Born (Co-Director, Center for Public Leadership (CPL); Faculty Chair, Senior Executive Fellows (SEF) Program; Lecturer in Public Policy, Harvard Kennedy School of Government) is a retired Brigadier General with 30 years of service in the United States Air Force. Prior to coming to Harvard, from 2004-2013, she served two terms as the Dean of the Faculty at the United States Air Force Academy where she was also the Professor and Head of the Behavioral Sciences and Leadership Department. Previously, Dana served as an Exchange Officer with the Royal Australian Air Force, Assistant Director for Recruiting Research and Analysis for the Assistant Secretary of Defense (Force Management Policy), Deputy Chief of the Personnel Issues Team for the Department of the Air Force (DC/Staff Personnel), Aide and Speech Writer to the Secretary of the Air Force, Squadron Commander for 11th Mission Support Squadron at Bolling AFB, DC and in Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

A graduate with distinction of the United States Air Force Academy, Professor Born received her B.S. in Behavioral Sciences (1983), M.S. in Experimental Psychology from Trinity University, TX (1985), M.A. in Research Psychology from University of Melbourne (1991) and Doctorate in Industrial and Organizational Psychology from Penn State University (1994). She received Penn State University’s Alumni Fellow Award (2012) and Distinguished Alumni Award (2018) and was awarded an Honorary Doctorate from Simmons College in Humane Administration (2007).

Born is the recipient of the Secretary of the Air Force’s Eugene M. Zuckert Award for Outstanding Management Achievement, Air Force Association’s Hoyt S. Vandenberg Award for outstanding contributions to Aerospace education, Air Force Distinguished Service Medal, Legion of Merit and Defense Meritorious Service Medal. She has been honored with the Harvard Kennedy School (HKS) Annual Teaching Awards as well as the Harvard Kennedy School of Government Innovation in Teaching Award in 2017.

Dr. Born is a Trustee on the United States Air Force Academy’s Falcon Foundation – serving on the Strategy, Governance and Scholarship Committees; Supporting Director on the USAFA Endowment Board, Past President of the Massachusetts Women’s Forum; Senior Consultant for the Core Leadership Institute; Peer Evaluator for the Higher Learning Commission; Member of the Women Corporate Directors, International Women’s Forum and Council on Foreign Relations; Council Member on Boston Mayor’s Pay Equity Workforce; Advisory Board Member for “With Honor;” and “A Child’s Guide to War” documentary, “Blue Star Families,” Senior Officer for Mission: Readiness; Past-President of the American Psychological Association (Society for Military Psychology) and previous Independent Director on Board of the Apollo Education Group having served on Compensation, Audit and Special Litigation Committees.

- Copy and image credit: Harvard University

Gen. Born is a member of the HOW Conversations video (and podcast) series hosting team, bringing together a varied group of experts and leaders to discuss timely issues of our reshaped world through the lenses of moral leadership, principled decision-making, and values-based behavior.

VIEW THE VIDEO SERIES | LISTEN TO THE PODCAST

- Copy and image credit: Harvard University

ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP

Long Blue Leadership is a production of the Long Blue Line Podcast Network, drops every two weeks on Tuesdays, and is available on Apple Podcasts, TuneIn + Alexa, Spotify and all your favorite podcast platforms. Search @AirForceGrads on your favorite social channels for Long Blue Leadership news and updates!

FULL TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Our guest, Brig. Gen. (Ret.) Dana Born '83 | Our host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz

Gen. Dana Born 00:06

Through mentorship and wise counsel, in early days actually and magnified through the time at the Air Force Academy, that character is paramount. It's also not enough, because you want to be a person of strong character that also has leadership, qualities that help influence for good. We can have leadership where people are able to influence but maybe not for good. And we can have character but have people of great character that aren't able to mobilize the influence. And so, I have just been, I guess, embracing that character and leadership aspect of our mission.

Naviere Walkewicz 01:19

My guest today is retired Brigadier General Dana Born, a 1983, graduate of the Air Force Academy. I'm excited to host this conversation with General Born, a recognized and widely respected expert in moral leadership, serving as a lecturer in public policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. We're going to explore the trajectory of General Born's own development as a leader. Our conversation will begin with her days as a cadet at the Air Force Academy, where she received a Bachelor of Science degree in Behavioral Science and Leadership. General Born began building her body of work then, first as a student, then analyst and researcher, now writer, teacher and speaker on public policy and society in the field of moral leadership as a How Institute for Society Distinguished Fellow through her distinguished 30 year military career, and since her retirement from the Air Force in 2013, she has been formally recognized more than 20 times for her exemplary service and academic excellence. In 2004, she became the first female Academy graduate to return to her alma mater as the Dean of Faculty, a role she held for two terms. Her work has been published more than 40 times and she has delivered nearly 200 presentations. General Born has endorsed more than a dozen books on leadership and public policy, and has contributed to five others. In addition to her work at Harvard, she hosts a video podcast series called HOW Conversations during which she discusses the tenets of moral leadership. Her guests include nationally and internationally recognized leaders from the private, military and public sectors. General Born. Welcome, and thank you for being here today.

Gen. Dana Born 02:54

Thank you so much for the wonderful introduction. And it's great to be in the Long Blue Line conversation with you and all our other members of our tremendous extended family in our Air Force. So glad to be here.

Naviere Walkewicz 03:07

Thank you so much, ma'am. And you know, you recently were just here for a reunion. How was that experience?

Gen. Dana Born 03:13

It was spectacular. The only way I can describe it is like going to see family members that you haven't seen for a while. And even after 44 years, since our induction day, it was like just picking up where, you know, we left off in terms of the connection, the common bond, it was probably better than I anticipated. And I can't actually explain why. But it was just so special. It was poignant as well, because certainly during those times, we spend time reflecting on those that are no longer with us. And it was very powerful in terms of the way that our class decided to do that with. We don't call it a yellow cap, right, because there's nothing yellow in the military, but with our gold caps. And classmate who remembered our fallen friend, and lit a candle on behalf of them. And it was too many hats. It was too many candles, it was too many people that we have lost. But it was something that was spectacular in another way because we had such great stories to share that sort of brought back you know, the legacy and the person of our classmates. And so I think we left with a little bit more spring in our step in terms of let's make our lives and the lives of those we love count each day. So it was really inspiring and quite an amazing time.

Naviere Walkewicz 04:41

I love hearing that. I get to come back for my 25th next year and even though I'm, you know, here working in this capacity, there is something so special that's timeless. With graduates, when they come together, we really do just kind of pick up where we left off and so I'm looking forward to that as well.

Gen. Dana Born 04:57

We got together with our what we call "dooley squadron," but you know, with our classes that we were with for the first two years, and then also with the last two years, because we transitioned after our three-degree year, and there was one individual that was in my, like, all four years together. And so that was kind of fun as well, yes.

Naviere Walkewicz 05:18

What our listeners love to do is kind of get to know our speakers as well. So if we could travel back to maybe your childhood and early days before the Academy. We'd really like to get to know what Gen. Born was like back then, you know, where did you grow up? What were you like? What were you into? Maybe you can take us back.

Gen. Dana Born 05:36

That's going back aways because I entered the Air Force Academy in 1979. So it really is going back decades here. But I grew up in a small town in upstate New York called Penn Yan. And, you know, we maybe had two or three thousand people. It was a very small town. If you think of Norman Rockwell, that is kind of, you know, the the old world, maybe even American Graffiti. That is my hometown. Everybody knows everybody pretty much still to this day. And I graduated from high school, the same day that I flew out to start basic training the next day. I literally didn't get to stay for my whole high school graduation. Because on the East Coast, graduations tend to be late June and of course, that's when basic Cadet training begins. So I hopped on a commercial airplane for the very first time, the day I graduated from high school. I flew airplanes before I drove a car. But I flew with my flight instructor actually to the nearest airport and then flew commercially, for the first time in my life, to go start basic training. I'd never been west of Ohio, and of course, people think about Ohio as the Midwest. So it was really going into a brave new world for me, certainly.

Naviere Walkewicz 06:58

So, were you always someone very courageous looking at new things. I mean, you said you were flying before you got into a car. So that's a bit telling there. What are their characteristics? Would you say you had as a young girl?

Gen. Dana Born 07:11

Yeah. I think that's, I wouldn't have characterized it actually as courageous. But I was certainly enjoyed adventure and the outdoors. I mean, some of my favorite activities. My dad was the vice president of a local college. And we grew up on a lake. So you know, waterskiing sailing, you know, boating, I loved to run, I love to fly, I love to ski. So there was that adventurous spirit. And certainly, I think that was part of the selection to go to the service academy. But it was also my dad, being a college professional and administrator, he took me to a college fair at the University of Vermont, I still remember this. And my dad had been enlisted in the Coast Guard, and right after World War Two, but he taught me how to salute. And I was always just kind of enamored with that part of his life. And I saw a Coast Guard Academy booth at this fair. And I got really excited. I went back to my father who was at his booth for his college and I said, "Dad, I know where I want to go, I want to go to the United States Coast Guard Academy." And then, when I applied, they said, "Oh, you missed the application date for this year, you'll have to come next year." And I was not wanting to wait to go to college. Right? I was ready. And so they said, well, there's these other academies. And I went back and talk to my track and cross country coach, and he did some exploration for me. And he said, "What about the Air Force Academy?" And I said, "Where is that?" And they said, "Colorado," and I thought, okay, skiing, mountains, you know, running. And that really was, it was his kind of helping me search through, okay, if this isn't an option, you know, what are your other options? And it turned out to be serendipity, just a very good fit and very grateful to this day, you know, for his mentorship.

Naviere Walkewicz 09:07

Well, I was going to ask how the Air Force Academy came into the picture. And it was by chance from the US Coast Guard Academy timing being off.

Gen. Dana Born 09:16

It was meant to be, I think, and, you know, I've had fun, you know, with over the years certainly while I was the dean working closely with the leadership at the Coast Guard Academy, you know, just kind of puns you know, they've changed their application date, I think to be more aligned now, but it was it was funny in talking with them about that, but it worked out really for the better. Well, you're also aware I have a mixed family in terms of you know, having Marine Corps and Air Force and Navy and Coast Guard. So we're all really in the same profession.

Naviere Walkewicz 09:56

We went kind of back in the early childhood days, but you just about your family kind of having mixed roles in different services. What does that all look like?

Gen. Dana Born 10:05

Yeah, I actually just recalled, as you were asking that question, I thank you for digging deeper there, because I forgot to mention Army as well and certainly my brother in law was a West Point graduate.

Naviere Walkewicz 10:16

We did that for him.

Gen. Dana Born 10:19

So appreciate that. You know, it's interesting, because I did not other than my dad's Coast Guard service really did not have a lot of military in my family. And but when I met my now husband, who is a Naval Academy graduate, when we were assigned to the Pentagon, it opened up a whole like military side of the family, because he does have a brother that went to VMI, one that went to West Point, he went to the Naval Academy, his father was a WWII aviator, who retired from the Navy. And so I and my family was primarily all educators, right? So I must say that it was providence, right, to get to the dean of the faculty position where I think it was keeping both sides of the family happy the educators as well as blended military service. And then of course, we have two daughters who are serving now, and one of them is 2020, graduate from the Air Force Academy, whose IP instructor pilot in helicopters and our youngest, who's a Naval Academy graduate who is in the Marine Corps now and just heading over to serve in Okinawa for three years as a comm. strat. officer in the Marine Expeditionary Forces. So we are certainly in a family business of of military service.

Naviere Walkewicz 11:41

Ma'am, you just shared a little bit about your time at the Academy as dean, first female graduate to become dean and then you serve two terms. What was that like?

Gen. Dana Born 11:50

It's interesting, that you asked that question and, of your, I know your own background in working a lot of issues, particularly women in leadership issues in diversity, equity inclusion, I find it actually paradoxical to think of myself as kind of the, you know, the first female dean because it is a fact, I'm just really grateful that we have a currently serving dean who's also a female. And it's interesting, because we just want to fit in, right, and just be the dean. And yet, if we don't say female dean, then we're invisible. And so it really is paradoxical. Anytime you're a minority of having a an adjective that caveats or clarifies, you know, that your your role. So I recognize that, but I'm really just so thrilled that I had the opportunity, and again, through a lot of mentors, encouraging and supporting through that journey, because I think I like many others, particularly women, take ourselves out of the running, because we haven't seen somebody go into that kind of an authority position before that look like us or are like us. So it was really people telling me, you know, don't you think it's your duty, you know, to offer to serve in that capacity, you know, why take yourself out of the running, if the Air Force thinks you're the right person at the right time, and you're willing to, then it's your duty to put your name in. And, and that was really the thinking that drew me to apply. And I'm really glad to have had that opportunity, not just for one term, but for to, and to see that, you know, there's more behind me that are more, you know, diverse, that is really good for our Academy.

Naviere Walkewicz 13:36

I'm glad you brought that up, because I actually struggled in asking that question for the similar reasons of saying first female to do something and at the same time, having been walking in those paths, understanding that sometimes people need to see people who have walked in those shoes that look like them, etc. So I'm glad that you kind of talked about the importance of recognizing those things, even though at the same time we see ourselves as I'm the qualified person to be doing this. So I appreciate you showing that.

Gen. Dana Born 14:01

It's hard to do though, too, because, you know, if you think about the generation of the first several classes to go through the academy, it was really a token time. I mean, I think we had 8.4% women that came in in our class. And so we didn't want to be seen as anything other than fitting in. And so it is hard for us also. And I remember when General Desjardins and I were serving together as the comm and the dean, right the first time you had two females in those two roles. And we had to kind of get over that. We had many conversations to say, hey, if the current population is wanting to have conversations, you know about women in the military, we need to have those conversations. Those are, you know, part of what we bring and it was and we had to listen a lot, right, because there was so much we didn't know about how the experience is similar and we're different for the now cadet, right, while we were in those positions.

Naviere Walkewicz 15:03

And that was actually one of the questions I had, from your experiences as a cadet, the highs and lows. And then what did that look like for you in the role then if dean, how did that change your perspective? Or, you know, looking at how you improved things, or made a difference?

Gen. Dana Born 15:17

I'm gonna go back to the highs and low question because the high was clearly meeting some of the most amazing, talented, diverse people that I had been exposed to, if you think about coming out of this small town, to the cadet wing that was twice the size, much more diverse representing countries around the world. I was, I was so in awe of look at who I'm here with, I was also very scared because we all got that, you know, warning that look left look, right, one, one or two of you aren't going to be there, right, at graduation. So it was a little, a little bit of a fire, right to say I better stay giving it my best, but I really think that's a high. And to this day, that's and even as the dean, it was always a wow moment to look around and see the incredible people that we got to be in the kind of common cause with and gave me great hope always for the future, both while I was a cadet and as the dean and now serving, you know, with the Air Force Academy Foundation, it's really inspiring and elevating, and provides hope during times that, you know, can be very daunting. The low, I would just want to get that out of the way, right? The low is always hard to talk about. But I think one of my low points, but it didn't last long. Because I I really had a love of flying, and a love of the air, I lost my pilot qualification probably because I was not studying properly. And, you know, my flashlight under my covers trying to pass that "EE" test or something. And so I did not have the opportunity to fly upon graduation. And that was hard. Because one the culture, you know, we're so oriented towards, "What you're, you're not going to fly?" And I couldn't, it was just not an option for me. And so I really just had to pivot in terms of what are the other needs and ways that I might be able to serve. But that that was a hard time to do that. And it was actually right before commitment. And so people were asking, you know, are you still gonna stay? And I thought, "Well, why wouldn't I am sure the Air Force has other, you know, ways to serve." So, but that was that was kind of a low. And I think another I don't know is if it's a low, but it might be one that I look back on. I was intercollegiate for 12 seasons. And so I had a whole lot of depth of really athletics, and really close friendships because of that, and a lot of travel to places I've never traveled to. But I also then think I didn't get as much breadth of experience of because time was so precious and trying to keep up academically. You know, and I think as I look back, you know, I had participated in theater when I was in high school, but I didn't have time for you know, Blue Bards or anything outside of really athletics and some of the military work that we got to do and keep up with academics and, you know, try to do well there and in my major.

Naviere Walkewicz 18:50

So ma'am you mentioned something about the pivot you had to make and you know, some of the disappointment that came with that. How did you kind of get to that positive headspace when your plan changed so dramatically.

Gen. Dana Born 19:02

It's hard for me to go back and put myself in what did it there. But I can think of examples like right now what comes to mind for me is the iRobot or the I don't know what how you refer to it, but those, you know, round circular vacuums that if yes, if they get up against a wall, they know that they're there to clean the floor, and they just find a redirect and they keep going. And that's sort of what I think it's been for me, you know, when you kind of stay oriented on your purpose and what you are passionate about. It's easy to not give up but to find another way. And that happened to me when I was fortunate enough to be in a PhD program sponsored by the Air Force Academy in the Air Force to go to Penn State University and right after my second year, the Air Force was downsizing and trying to provide opportunity for people to not have a commitment to school and to be able to basically give up that commitment and not come into the Air Force. And I got that letter that said, "Hey, you can you know, we're sorry. But right now we have an option if you'd like to, you know, get out of the Air Force, you can." And I remember thinking like, you've invested in me to be here for this PhD program. And, you know, I'm hopeful that there's something with this I can do for my Air Force. And so no, I don't want to get out. And so it was kind of like that same iRobot response of I'm here to do this. And so I'm going to figure out a pivot to be able to stay and contribute in a way that might be valuable.

Naviere Walkewicz 20:44

That is a great analogy, ma'am. That's fantastic. Well, I know this is not new to you, ma'am. Because with you're hosting other podcasts on leadership, there's questions that you know, our listeners love to learn about, that you're very familiar with. So I'd like to start with one that you ask often about leaders being born versus made. And I know your thoughts on this, that they are both born and made. But I'm hoping you might be able to share a little bit more about what led you to that perspective.

Gen. Dana Born 21:12

I think it's through mentorship and wise counsel, in early days, actually, and magnified through the time at the Air Force Academy, that that character is paramount in terms of us being effective humans. And it's also not enough, because you want to be a person of strong character that also has leadership, qualities that help influence for good. And I remember, during my time, even as the dean when we were developing the character and leadership center, and talking about do we call it the in because it used to be the Center for Character Development? Or do we call it the Center for Leadership Development? And are they the same, and I was fascinated with those conversations, because we really got to a point where it is both and and we need to call out character and leadership. Because we can have great, or I won't say great, but we can have leadership where people are able to influence but maybe not for good. And we can have character, but have people of great character that aren't able to mobilize the influence. And so I have just been, I guess, embracing that character and leadership aspect of our mission, primarily, from the time at the Air Force Academy to present day research and investment in teaching and working with executives, graduate students, undergraduates and boards.

Naviere Walkewicz 22:50

Was it would you say at the Air Force Academy is when you knew yourself to be a leader? Or, when did you have the desire to lead?

Gen. Dana Born 22:59

Interestingly enough, I think about that back at my small town of Penn Yan, New York, and some of that, I have to attribute to the fact that we didn't have many people. I mean, my school had 1,000 people but bused in from 20, or 30 miles in every different direction. And so the because the town wasn't that big, so we had a chance. Matter of fact, I was like, I was Miss Flying Club, you know, for the parade. I was, you know, the head of women's athletics for my school, I got to be on Student Council and be a treasure for my class, and, you know, captain of the cross country team and the track team, it really did stretch me into places that I might not have sought out myself. But people kind of put me in those positions, and then helped me to learn through those positions. But I must say, most of my learning was when things didn't go so well, you know, how come you know, people aren't buying into this, you know, motto. And, you know, what is the dynamic that's happening? You know, we're, we're fractured as a team, you know, how can we fix this? And so it was really through some of those friction moments that I probably learned the most and really loved the opportunity have an input and an influence?

Naviere Walkewicz 24:19

Can you share some of those because I think some of our listeners are certainly in parts of their leadership journeys, where they're, they may be facing some of those, you know, friction moments or their early parts of their leadership lessons. You know, what were some of the early lessons that you took on that you might share with them if they experience something like that?

Gen. Dana Born 24:38

I think what came to mind for me, more recent examples, clearly, because they're still pretty fresh. But what came to me when you were talking about maybe early years, was I think we're I may be let myself downs nd we're I didn't feel as though I did well enough to be considered a leader. Right? You have to, you know, it's the hero's journey. And I think that I've learned over the years that you don't need to be perfect as a leader. Quite the contrary, right people can relate and, and really be on their own development journey more when we are human and imperfect. And that took me a long time to really embrace because there is that pressure, right, that we feel like we have to be perfect. And we have to know so much, and do so well. And I think that that's, that's not people know that humans aren't perfect, right? So if you're coming across perfect, right? People look for the chinks in the armor. And the higher you are, the higher you fall. So I think that I had that experience at the Air Force Academy, I shared recently in a Sabre Society, talk that, you know, I had been a commander during 9/11, at Bolling, Air Force Base. And it really, I was so proud of how my unit did, and the people that were recognized for just excellence, and we were prepared, and we were responsive. And it was really exciting. And I chose to stay in and ended up at the Air Force Academy as a department chair. And I brought my same self and my same, you know, you know, command energy and I failed miserably in the first, you know, several months, we were going through the sexual assault and sexual harassment crisis, and I was being fairly directive, which worked well with the population I was leading in Washington, DC during 9/11 did not work as well, when you have a very small but mature, you know, mostly PhDs, professional faculty, that I needed to listen to more and not be directive, and it took not long, you know, for what we call it, the Air Force Academy, the blanket party for quite respectable people to come in and say, ma'am, this isn't working and to swallow that humility pill, and, and realize, okay, we need to, I need to adapt here, not lose myself, but adapt to this new environment and situation,

Naviere Walkewicz 27:11

Maybe you can share some of the best attributes that you've you've come across in leaders, because, you know, everyone leading from the authentic selves, brings it forward in their own ways. But what are some of the ones that you see time and true, and again, that are really spoken with you as best attributes?

Gen. Dana Born 27:27

I think what I have grown to really value is people who probably listen well, and who are curious, and, and I've, I've, I've also found people who see the individual in each person, like, what makes Naviere tick, what is it that's important to you personally, and professionally? You know, what are the ways that you are at your best, and that I think is, is really helpful. I also, I don't know why it just came to me, but I'm kind of led to share it is, I heard some great advice. When I was a younger officer, and for where people were not performing to expectations, instead of blaming the individual or feeling as though you know, they're no good, we need to their poor performer label and move them on. It's really better when we asked three questions, when somebody's not meeting, a standard, you know, have I been as a person, you know, leading? Have I been clear in the expectations? And if I have, then the next question is, have I prepared them? Or given them the right training? Or, you know, opportunity to be good at what I'm asking them to do? And then the third is, if the answer to the first two is I have, I did, then what else is happening in their lives that for whatever reason, they're not meeting, you know, the expectations or standards. And if there's nothing there, then you start the performance plan. But, that was, I think, when people are like giving you space to learn and grow and taking kind of a co collaborative ownership of performance. I've, I've, I've thrived in those situations more than and I hope people in my leadership have thrived in those situations more as well, because it is more of a approach that is a shared approach to getting the mission accomplished and taking care of people.

Naviere Walkewicz 29:38

That's an amazing nugget that you shared. I mean, I'm just I can think back throughout my career and times when I probably should have leveraged something like that, and I might have been more effective. Thinking about what pieces have I not maybe done as well or have I done those things, as you said, kind of do a reflective piece from a leadership perspective, to be able then to collaborate in a you know, a better way forward. That's awesome, ma'am. Thank you.

Gen. Dana Born 30:02

Yeah, I had a couple of terrible times of moral discernment, I would say, in decision making when those situations came up, particularly when, you know, you're having to make a decision where somebody's going to be incarcerated. And, you know, I, I had one of those situations where, you know, I was actually eight months pregnant, and the individual was a failure to show up for he was an honor guardsman failure to show for several funerals. And his, his wife was eight months pregnant. And here I was sitting, as you know, the summary court official having to decide if I'm going to throw, you know, him in a situation where he's absent from his family, and, you know, and what kind of financial, leeway will I have in order to help the family but still hold him accountable. And that was very, very difficult because of my own, you know, situation and empathy. But at the same time, it hit me during that decision that there are a lot of airmen who are not there for the birth of their kids or for special events and are deployed in harm's way. And they're doing the mission, not A.W.O.L.. And so I ultimately decided to, you know, incarcerate him for his failure to go and being A.W.O.L. and also try to protect with some leniency, his family situation.

Naviere Walkewicz 31:39

Leading with compassion, but always being accountable, ma'am, that's, it's tough. And I think, you know, we have many listeners that find themselves in those situations. And I've often been asked, you know, I'm a mom, how can I advance my career professionally, I have to do all these other things as well. And so maybe a question that I might tie to that a little bit. You know, how do you how did you balance, that compassion side of leadership and still be able to make some those difficult decisions in the moment? And you know, what would you share with others and how they might do that and think through things when it maybe feels a little bit too hard or too daunting?

Gen. Dana Born 32:15

It is very hard and is daunting. And you use the term balance, and I, I love the word balance. You know, I'm a middle child, and I'm a Libran. You know, I like balanced, but I have found balance to be very difficult. There's a term called. "balance is bunk." And I like that because it's anytime I feel like I've had anything in balance, it's about ready to go on tilt. And so I try to change out the word balance with the word integrate, that works better for me or Harmonize How do I bring together those things and the Airforce in the time that I was working at the in the Chief of Staff's personnel office came up with a motto, "People First in Mission Always," and it can be, "Mission First." And people always, but it's sort of like the chicken and the egg, they both actually go together. And they're very important. And so I think there's that keeping the both and in the integration of that is what helped me in some of those tough decisions. I mean, I remember having to take a security clearance away from a lieutenant colonel, for all the right reasons, but trying, you know, that person then was going to lose their position in the Air Force, because it required a security clearance. And, and it wasn't a situation that I put that person in, right, they put themselves in that position, but what I didn't want to do was deliver the news in a way that then the individual would feel like they have nothing left right to or would ultimately, you know, take their life, right, that always was present to say, uh, don't want this person to go away with anything other than, you know, your life is not over. But you know, this is a very serious trajectory that you have to decide how you're going to go forward from this point. And that was hard, very hard, but it's both people and mission that I think we have to embrace in the way that we carry on what we're responsible for, for our nation.

Naviere Walkewicz 34:25

Well, I think about you know, some of those stories that you shared and some of the experiences you had, I mean, you probably had to go home and, and your your network at home, your family was there with you through all of the journey. How has your family influenced you as a leader and maybe what role do they play in that?

Gen. Dana Born 34:40

I talked a lot with my family, like the time around the dinner table was really sort of transparency. And that bothered my children because I started to hear things back that I thought they shouldn't have to be hearing some of this, and so I also kind of drew inward and decided that that I, "Who can I talk with," right, because I don't want to bring work home, so to speak, that weighs down the family. I want to focus on them. And so I went through a period where I suffered in silence. And I think many leaders and many people, as particularly when you have, you know, security issues that you can't talk about certain things with others. I think we need to find a way and I ultimately did find someone that I could go to and say, I need some advice. And that was monumental, because it helped me understand that I had not been doing that with with great mentors. And I thought about it. And it shocked me that I was not asking for advice. And I thought, How do I feel like if Naviere or someone comes to me and ask for advice, I feel like, wow, if they think I have, yeah, exactly. They're including me, I have something to offer. They care about what I have to say. And so I really had an epiphany that said, I need to do that more. And I started to reach out. And in one case, I reached out to the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, you know, having talked with the superintendent first. And it was phenomenal. Because I had such a different perspective on something I was ruminating over. And I thought Why did I wait so long?

Naviere Walkewicz 36:26

What advice would you give to some that are suffering in silence, and maybe can't see that next step? And to doing that what actually helped you to go seek help and ask for help or ask for guidance and mentorship?

Gen. Dana Born 36:39

I think recognizing, well, in some cases, vulnerability is a strength. And, you know, Brene Brown, who I really do love her work. And her, her, her YouTube or, you know, Netflix, a lot of great science and also practice, but she said, What makes you vulnerable, makes you beautiful. And I think that that is part of it is to recognize that, you know, we're all vulnerable, or we're all broken in maybe different places, right to quote some history. And so I think it connects us and builds trust when we are willing to be vulnerable. And I think it takes courage as well, to let ourselves be seen for all, you know, we have a saying that's warts and all. And, you know, to let ourselves be really fully seen,

Naviere Walkewicz 37:33

That resonates with so many people. I think a lot of times people when they're listening to podcasts, and they're, they're just trying to learn and get better in their professional career in their personal lives. Just a can take one little thing that someone really resonates with. And I think you sharing that bit about being reflective and not necessarily suffering in silence, but but looking for helping others I think is going to be really powerful for some. So thank you for sharing some of that.

Gen. Dana Born 37:56

I think the key takeaway is, is just building on what we just talked about, like if I had a foot-stomper, right from our Air Force Academy days, that's like, if you're starting to fall asleep, right? I use that at Harvard. And I'm like, "Does anybody know what foot stamper actually means?" It means, you know, this, is it pay attention. And I'm, I'm really motivated by the John F. Kennedy quote, "Leadership, well, learning and leadership are indispensable from each other." I think that if I were to say there's two really important takeaways, those for me have been, be curious, be more curious. And that is just really asking a lot of questions. Leaning into not judgment, but leaning into really digging into and trying to understand. And that gets us, I think, in a whole different place. That is a good place. And so I haven't always done that. Well, curiosity is like a growth mindset. And I think that is something that I really would recommend to our listeners, be more curious. And I think that's being helped by Chat GPT and Generative AI because it's all about the questions you ask. And, and then it kind of gets at what answers you get. And I think that's maybe training us to be, you know, more curious and careful in how we're asking and being curious. The other is courage. And you brought this up earlier, but I think courage, you know, the root word of courage is heart. And I think leading with your heart and leading with, like the recognition that things that are hard, make your heart rate go up. Courage, you know, our heart rate goes up when we're in danger physically, morally, psychologically. And I think leaning into that to where our heart rate goes up a little bit is how we learn and grow and how we basically can make positive change. So, those two things together, curiosity and courage, under the umbrella of learning and leading go, you know, they're indispensable to each other is the takeaway. I thought you might ask me like, you talked about purpose earlier. What is your purpose? What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning? And what is it that keeps you going through the tough times? And what is it at the end of your, you know, last breath that will have been your dash in your life, your purpose, your why, and mine actually is a simple phrase to myself. I use the term, "kick chocks", and "kick chocks" is, you know, the bricks in front of the wheel of the airplane, and when you're ready to go, you gotta get, gotta get rid of them, or you can't take off. But sometimes you have to kind of have the chocks there, to pause and to, you know, refuel and to do things. So kick chocks, to me has sort of been a way that I am channeled. Some call it your true north, or your Polaris, your compass, and it speaks to me because I can, I can go, go, go, go and never put chocks in front. I also can keep chocks in front of myself and, and limit myself and, and I'm passionate about what is it that somebody needs to have a break? You know? And when is it when somebody has got something in the way or team or organization that's holding them back? And how do I help identify that and kick chocks with them so we can take off. So, it speaks to me. But yeah, the purpose I think, purpose and passion and the individualization of that, so because everybody is so different comes from our life stories, and I love learning about people's purpose.

Naviere Walkewicz 41:51

General born, might you share with us, you know, maybe what you're reading, watching or listening to that's helped you develop your leadership skills.

Gen. Dana Born 41:59

I love to listen to everything. I mean, I am a listener, you know, we all know how we we learn best, I'm really auditory. So podcasts I pick up, I really do a lot with the Council on Foreign Relations. I do listen also to a lot of leadership podcasts, because I just find the whole topic of leadership fascinating for so many different approaches to what we think we're all talking about the same, it just really is expansive of my understanding. And I also now there are so many ways that you can have, you know, auditory books, and or listen to even academic journal articles. So usually, it's a treadmill thing to listen. And I just, I think that is my approach. I also I do like to read, and I think my favorite leadership book is going to shock you. But it's it's sort of got a nautical theme, I think, not an Air Force theme, but its endurance about Shackleton and Antarctica. And there's so many leadership lessons in that book, endurance is one of my favorites. And another one of my favorites is and they're both kind of historical, is Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, written in 1946. I've read that so many times, and he wrote it in nine days, but it's because he wrote it while he was a prisoner in the Nazi prison camp. And then he rewrote it after it was burned. And he was liberated. And it's just an amazing, timeless evergreen read about life and about leadership, about purpose about meaning. And then most recently, for a current one is True North, and that is emerging leaders by Bill George and Zack Clayton. And I just think that that is a great pedagogy of thinking about ourselves. Put our own oxygen mask on first so that we can better care for the mission and the people that are entrusted to us and the change we want to see in the world. So, that's a current reader TrueNorth for emerging leaders.

Naviere Walkewicz 44:24

It's been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time, ma'am. It's been a pleasure and an honor.

Gen. Dana Born 44:28

It's a pleasure and an honor. And I thank all our listeners for listening in and we wish you well.

KEYWORDS

Air Force Academy, leadership, people, Air Force, talk, family, dean, work, leader, serve, flew, cadet, Academy, Coast Guard Academy, recognized, years, terms, leading, long, podcasts

The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation