#38: Boundaries in Relationships, with Brenda Winkle

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

Brenda is an advanced trauma-informed breathwork facilitator, and trauma-informed Reiki Master, and is certified and highly trained in multiple energy healing modalities that she offers in her "Heal to the Yes" method. She is an empath, a highly sensitive person, and an intuitive. She was a music educator for 26 years and has a Masters's Degree in Educational Leadership.

Brenda helps people reclaim and live from their full embodied YES. Through empowering her clients to understand what’s theirs/what's not, establish the boundaried YES, and guiding them to full-capacity living, they are able to create their YES-Filled Lives and move through their days with more freedom, ease, and joy. Try breathwork: get instant access to a free 4 part video series designed for busy high-achievers on the go: https://www.brendawinkle.com/breathe

Get to know Brenda:

website: https://www.brendawinkle.com/

Podcast: https://www.brendawinkle.com/podcasts/your-yes-filled-life

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/brendawinkle/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brenda.winkle111

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendawinkle/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@brendawinkle111

Karin's information:

Website: https://drcalde.com

Email: [e-mail]

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

TRANSCRIPT

Podcast Intro:

[00:00] Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love is Us.

Episode Intro:

Karin: Hello, everyone. Today we're talking about boundaries: what they are, when to use them, how to use them, and more.

My guest is Brenda Winkle, who is a former school teacher of many years, and now she's a trauma informed, breath work facilitator. Reiki Master has her own podcast, which I've been lucky enough to be a guest on recently, and so much more. So I encourage you to go learn more about her through the links that are in the show notes. And as you'll learn at the very start of this episode, we learned that we have something in common which has led us to get to know one another better.

So this is going to be one of my foundation episodes, and what I mean by this is that I'm going to be referring many of my clients to it and actually already have, because having boundaries is vital for your relationships and for your mental health. But most people struggle to communicate them and even recognize that they need them because it's not something that you're born knowing how to do. It's a skill that you can develop.

Personally, I have found that I can have to continually work on it, and it's usually not easy. There is discomfort that goes along with communicating a boundary, especially for those who have strong people pleasing parts like I do, but the costs of not having boundaries is just too high. Those costs include overwhelm, burnout, resentment, depression, anxiety, the feeling that you're never enough, and unhealthy or even broken relationships.

So Brenda and I talk about boundaries for most of this episode, and then toward the end, she's going to walk us through a breathing exercise because it's hard to do boundary work when we're anxious and our bodies are dysregulated, and breath work can really help us return to a calm, engaged state. So at around minute 43 or so, depending on how long this intro is, there will be about a minute of mostly silence as she walks us through it. So if you're in the car, you might want to skip over that minute and return to it later because it is a helpful exercise. Okay, so thanks for being here. And here we go.

Karin: Welcome, Brenda.

[03:09] Brenda: Thank you for having me, Karin. I'm so excited to be here.

[03:12] Karin: Yeah, I'm really glad to have you here. This is just one of those topics that I think is crucial for relationships, healthy ones. And so I'm really happy to have the opportunity to talk about boundaries today. Yeah, but before we dive into it, tell us where you are in the world.

[03:32] Brenda: I live in the Portland, Oregon area in a little town called Lake Oswego. Oh, yeah?

[03:38] Karin: I didn't realize we're like neighbors. No kidding.

[03:43] Brenda: Where are you?

[03:43] Karin: I'm in Beaverton, right next to Portland. So I'm actually headed to Lake Oswego today to pick up my daughter. Oh, that's so funny.

[03:51] Brenda: Oh my gosh, we are neighbors. We're like 1015 minutes apart. Yeah.

[03:54] Karin: Oh, that's so funny. I was expecting, oh, I live in Vermont or something like that. Oh, that's a funny surprise. So what drew you there?

[04:05] Brenda: Well, it's an interesting story. I was living in Boise, Idaho. I'd been a teacher for about 24 years at that point. And I moved to Beaverton initially because I took a teaching job. And what I really wanted to do was to run my business full time. And I loved this new school district I was working for. I loved the teachers. I loved the kids. I just felt like it was such a healthy district, and yet there was this nudge that I really wanted to run my own business full time. I'd had it really part time since 2015 and just worked weekends and a couple of evenings here and there. And I got ready to go back to school in the 2022, 2023 school year. And I was teaching online, and I was saying to my participants, do the things that light you up and try to move away from the things that are bringing you stress or that don't feel aligned for you anymore. And then I would get off the call and I would think, oh, I have to go to school soon. Oh, I don't want to go. And I realized I was out of integrity. And so I reached out to my administrator and said exactly that. I'm out of integrity here. I need to make a shift. I really need to follow this dream of running my business full time. And so I stepped away from a 26 year career in teaching to run my business full time in September or August of 2022 almost a year ago.

[05:32] Karin: That's a big transition.

[05:34] Brenda: Yeah, huge. It was really huge. And I was living in Beaverton at the time, and I moved to Lake Oswego just a month ago.

[05:40] Karin: Oh, okay. So we really were neighbors for a little while.

[05:43] Brenda: We were really neighbors for a while.

[05:47] Karin: So you've only been there a month, so it's pretty new.

[05:50] Brenda: It's pretty new. Yeah. I'm just getting it figured out. I still go back to Beaverton because that's where my nail salon was and my hairdresser and all those things. I really like beaverton.

[06:01] Karin: Oh, and of course lake Oswego is beautiful.

[06:04] Brenda: It is beautiful. So we're going to have to connect in person now that we know we're literally ten to 15 minutes apart.

[06:10] Karin: Yeah, I'd love that. I'd love that. So tell me, you mentioned that you wanted to start your own business and give that a go. So tell us about what you do for work now.

[06:22] Brenda: Yeah, I'm a speaker, educator, healer and guide, really working with sensitive and successful people, high achievers, high performers. Helping them find their yes filled lives by helping them distinguish what's theirs and what's not. Creating the boundary. Yes. Where they can say yes to the things that they want by saying no to some things that they don't, including some really good things. And then also really expanding nervous system capacity by healing somatically in the body, different life experiences. And so I work with people individually, one on one. I work with people in a group called yes Academy, which is my signature program, and I offer nice, nice, nice.

[07:05] Karin: You're speaking my. And of course, we're going to be focusing on boundary setting today. But how did you come to do this work? Well, I'm sorry, you did tell us a little bit about being in teaching, but I'm curious why you chose this route.

[07:28] Brenda: Yeah, that's a good question. And it started in a school I was teaching in. I was really busy. I had another part time job in addition to the business, and I wanted to take yoga, but I knew that the only way I could take yoga was if we brought a teacher in so that I didn't have to leave the building. So I reached out to my local studio and asked for her help, and she said she couldn't, but she had someone who could. And so I started to bring in this teacher whose name is Rachel McGrath. She's still a dear friend, and she taught yoga in my classroom after school. And one night in class, I was mentioning needing a massage, and a woman who taught down the hall for me that I didn't know very well came in with a business card, and it was for somebody else, not even her, and it said Reiki on it. And I said, Reiki, I've heard of that, but I don't really know what it is. And she said, Come on in for a session. So I went for a session, and I just felt like, oh, my gosh, this is what I've been looking for. I felt so good. I felt so grounded. And I found that I was with somebody who understood what it was like to be sensitive in a world that really caters to people who aren't as sensitive. And so it opened up this whole portal for me, where I just took a deep dive. Within a year, I was a Reiki master. Then I began to study theta healing. I've studied a couple of other healing modalities, became a certified trauma informed breathwork facilitator in April of 2023 and have just really felt guided and led to offer healing to others because I needed that healing myself. Because as a young kid, I could sense and feel everything around me and I could read the room and I went instantly to the person whose nervous system was least regulated because if I could help them feel better, then I felt safe. And so I needed to find a way to really help my own sensitivity be more of a superpower instead of a liability, where I could actually channel it into things that were helpful for me, instead of channeling it all to other people so that I could feel better. And so that's how I got into the work.

[09:44] Karin: Yeah. We're going to be friends.

[09:50] Brenda: Yay.

[09:51] Karin: Yeah. And I'd of course love to hear about the breath work that you're doing. And that's just a newer modality for me that I've been exploring and have found it to be helpful personally. But for clients, I like to start out my sessions with a little bit of breath work. So valuable.

[10:11] Brenda: Absolutely. And it's accessible. You can go in for a session and there's definitely merit and value in that, but it's also something you can take with you anywhere, anytime and you don't have to have somebody show you how to do it once you learn just a couple of key things.

[10:28] Karin: Yeah. And it can be powerful to really shift your nervous system, can't it?

[10:32] Brenda: Absolutely.

[10:35] Karin: So on to boundaries. So we're going to be talking about boundaries, of course, in the context of relationships, but maybe you can just give us a little bit of an orientation about what healthy boundaries really are.

[10:49] Brenda: Yeah, I'd love to. I like to look at boundaries as a how to manual for you. So when we teach other people how we want to be treated, how we want to feel, what we want to experience, that's really what boundaries are all about. It's that teaching. Sometimes there's this conception that people have that if I set boundaries, I'm being mean, or if I set boundaries, I'm going to push people away. And I found the opposite to be true, that the more we set healthy boundaries in our lives, the richer our relationships can become. Because people know that we're going to tell them when something's up for us. And people know that we're telling the truth. Because if we're not saying the things that are bugging us, it's coming out in different ways. We might be passive aggressive, we might have resentment or anger and all of those kinds of things actually poison relationships. And so when we can be authentic and true and real and set boundaries, it's about being honest with ourselves and honest with the people in our lives around what feels good to us.

[12:01] Karin: And it gives us the chance to be authentic, which is what I think we all really want to be. We want to be our true selves in our relationships and feel loved having both of those things. And I think that boundaries allows us that.

[12:17] Brenda: I agree, totally agree that sometimes we can go through our lives and feel like no one knows us if we don't set boundaries. And I say that from a place of having done that. And so I know intimately what it's like to feel like nobody really knows me. They like me, and it feels like they are happy to see me and they greet me, but do they know me? And it wasn't until I began really setting boundaries in my life that I felt known.

[12:46] Karin: Yeah. And of course our story is that when we were setting up this interview, I had sent to you an email saying, if you could please schedule this after such and such date, and you had misread it and you thought it was, I think, before then or by then or something like that. So I get this notification and it was during this super busy week for me where I had, I think, three other interviews. And of course I just feel that in my gut. First I'm like, oh, shoot, but I'm really glad to see you're on my calendar and do I really want to say and then I laughed because I remembered what our conversation was about. It's like, oh, yeah, boundaries. I can say something and that's okay. So even though I've been doing this for a while, still, sometimes I forget and have to remind myself and have to nudge myself. But then I said something to you and of course you were like, oh, I'm so sorry. Of course, yeah, no problem. And it was just fine. It was just fine.

[13:51] Brenda: Yes. And it often is just fine. And I think we all feel that little ping. Like, for me, it's often in my belly when I'm like, oh, I need to say something about that, right? Is it in your belly, too?

[14:06] Karin: Yeah, I think it is, and I know it is. And I think that if I hadn't said something, there would have just been a little bit of that resentment brewing there and it would have been minor. It wasn't a big deal, but it was still there. And this just cleared that.

[14:24] Brenda: I love that. So I like to talk about squeaky clean energy. And squeaky clean energy between people is when there's really clear, open, transparent communication, it allows for the relationship to develop or improve because we know we can trust that the other one's going to say their needs. I love that. It's so important.

[14:47] Karin: So how do you establish boundaries with people that you care about?

[14:55] Brenda: Well, let's maybe take it back one half step, if that's okay.

[15:00] Karin: Sure, yeah.

[15:01] Brenda: And talk about how you might know you need a boundary. Because sometimes we might not realize that a boundary is a possibility in a situation. And usually the symptoms of needing a boundary are resentment, anger overwhelm those kind of negative emotions towards somebody we really care about. So when I notice myself feeling irritated or set off by someone I really love, it's not ever about them. It's about, oh, that's an opportunity for me to set a boundary. Because if I'm feeling angry with somebody, it's because they've violated the boundary. But if I've never communicated a boundary, then they have no way of knowing that. And so often the first step for people is they're dealing with resentment and anger towards the people that they love most, or they're feeling exhausted at work, or they're feeling like no one appreciates them, or they're feeling like it's all on me. So those are all symptoms of needing a boundary. And then when we set a boundary, I like to really break it down into four parts because I think it's the educator in me that makes it feel a little bit more tangible. If I have four things I can do, and then you can adjust this any which way to fit a situation. I developed this from Terry Cole's work and from nonviolent communication. And so it's a way of really stating what we need and how we feel in a way that is on us and it's about us and it's not about the other person. And so the four parts would be number one, I noticed number two, I felt number three, the request or the ask that you are setting the boundary, and then number four, asking for confirmation of understanding or agreement. And so that might sound like number one. I noticed that you were 30 minutes late for our meeting. I felt frustrated because I had worked really hard to clear my calendar and I felt like you didn't respect my time moving forward. Could we agree that you'll let me know if you're going to run late so that I can adjust my calendar? And then number four is the agreement or seeking confirmation? Can we agree moving forward that you can let me know if you're going to be late? And so it's just really doing it this way. And for a lot of people that are boundary beginners asking the question, can we agree moving forward feels a little bit safer than saying I need you to X, y and z and so it feels more palatable to them, and then you can adjust it as needed for the situation. And then if there's a boundary violator, like somebody who you've had this conversation with more than one or two or three or four times, then you can set a consequence. And that might be I noticed that you are repeatedly late, and I've talked to you about this before. I'm feeling frustrated and unheard, and what I'm going to do next time is wait for you for 15 minutes and then I'm going to leave and I'm not going to continue to wait. And so the consequence after somebody who's repeatedly violated your boundaries is really important because without it, they'll keep doing it.

[18:33] Karin: Yeah. And that sounds like a gentle approach because it almost sounds like more of a request at first, and then if they don't honor that your request, then you're really saying, here's where the line is. Exactly. And it's not that I'm punishing you, it's that I need to take care of myself. Right, right.

[18:56] Brenda: And then I always like to say, we're not responsible for how anybody feels about our boundaries. They don't have to like it. They don't have to agree with it. They can still be our boundaries even if they don't agree.

[19:08] Karin: Yeah. Why do people struggle with this so much?

[19:12] Brenda: I think there's several reasons. I think we're people pleasers. We're socialized to be people, pleasers. I think that's, one, if we have a history of trauma, that can be really difficult to set boundaries because our boundaries have been violated and we don't know what it feels like to have healthy boundaries and to know that we can have healthy boundaries. And then I think also just if we never had healthy boundaries modeled for us, we might feel like if we set a boundary, everyone's going to leave us. And so I think those things are the three big that people pleasing the history of trauma and then just maybe not having models.

[19:51] Karin: Yeah. And it can be really scary.

[19:54] Brenda: Yeah.

[19:55] Karin: Because we're built for connection and it feels like we might lose that connection right. If we establish that boundary. So it makes sense, I think, that people can be really fearful of establishing those, and yet the rewards are so great. Right.

[20:14] Brenda: Absolutely. And the people who are going to push back most on our boundaries are the people who have benefited from us not having any.

[20:23] Karin: Yeah.

[20:24] Brenda: And so it's worth just remembering that as you have somebody who's pushing back on the boundaries, remember that they were really benefiting and take it with a grain of salt and then make your next decisions. And for some people, you'll have to ask more than one time, and it doesn't make them a bad person or a wrong person. It just means they have done what the old you wanted to do for so long that it's a matter of just relearning. And so giving people grace and also holding them accountable is important in this process. And it's a practice.

[20:58] Karin: Yes. Like our example that I gave a few minutes ago. Yeah. I still have to remind myself. And also I talk in parts because I have the Ifs training. So I speak to my parts. I'm like, oh, okay, there's my people pleaser part coming up there here and wanting to make everyone happy. And I'm going to tell her that it's okay. That doesn't mean I'm going to lose the relationship or the connection. But there's also the times when there might be some more risk.

[21:33] Brenda: That's true.

[21:33] Karin: And that relationship might be more tender and it can be really scary for people, especially if they're not really practiced at establishing boundaries.

[21:45] Brenda: Right, absolutely. And so if somebody's never set a boundary before, I like to have them set a boundary in a really safe way, like maybe with your barista at Starbucks. Just practice the boundary statement. And it could be really simple about something that has very low levels of consequences. Like it could be I noticed that last time I was here that there was just a little bit more foam than I would have liked on my latte. I'd like to make a request that I have low foam on this latte. Would that be okay? Or something like that. Try it with somebody who you don't have that deep relationship with just to get practiced in setting the boundary. And it really will build confidence when you realize, when you ask people nicely to do something, a lot of times people are like, oh, yes, of course, I would love to do that. Because I think in general, people like to make each other happy. And when we ask in a nice way, even if we're setting a boundary, people are responsive for the most part.

[22:51] Karin: And I think that is so key because boundaries without some kind of compassion can be very punishing. It's harder, I think, for the other person to hear and want to honor it, but it becomes about erecting walls rather than wanting that connection.

[23:09] Brenda: Absolutely, yeah.

[23:11] Karin: Having that compassion, I think, is an important piece.

[23:14] Brenda: And Terry Cole talks about she talks about healthy boundaries and then she talks about rigid boundaries that are too strong and porous boundaries that are too weak. And so there is some work to be done around finding the just right spot in your boundaries. And so giving yourself grace to practice and play around with how it feels and works for you, I think is really important.

[23:38] Karin: Can you tell us a little bit more about those different kinds of boundaries?

[23:42] Brenda: Yeah, absolutely. So if I have two rigid of boundaries, it's going to mean that I'm really closed off. I'm not flexible at all. I might be pushing people away with my rigidity. And so an example of a rigid boundary would be something that I'm not willing to talk about, I'm not willing to compromise on it's my way or the highway, the end. Now there's a time and place for those kind of boundaries, for sure. We all have different areas in our lives that are complete deal breakers. Like, for me, I don't like cigarette smoke. And so if somebody was trying to have cigarette smoke in my house, I would set a really firm boundary that would be like, you are not allowed to smoke in here at all. But if we do that with our family members and we say things like, you are not allowed to do this around me, or we're harsh in our words, it can be really hurtful. For example, I was in a phone call with my sister, and my sister and I are very close. We talk every day. We have for 30 years as long as we moved away from home, which is probably even longer than that. And one day she was really going on about something in her life, and I perceived it as complaining. And I had a stressful morning ahead of me, and I was feeling escalated because of the stressful morning. And what I could have done was to say, I'm feeling really stressed. I'm noticing that you're talking about a lot of things that are going wrong in your life, and I'm feeling like I don't have capacity for that right now, and I'm feeling stressed. And then when I listen to you, I'm feeling anxious too. Could we table this conversation until I'm feeling better? That would have been a really compassionate way to do that. What I did instead was say something like, I just can't listen to complaining anymore today. I'm too stressed. I'm going to have to get off the phone if you're going to continue to complain. That's a rigid boundary. And she was understandably hurt by that. And it took us a little bit of time to repair that hurt because she heard me saying, I have to get off the phone as I don't want to hear from you unless you have something positive to say. And so that's a rigid boundary that could potentially be hurtful. And we're all prone to setting those kinds of rigid boundaries if we're under stress ourselves. And so giving grace and compassion if it happens and then going into repairing the relationship is important. So that's an example of a rigid boundary and you could take it to any topic that you want.

[26:18] Karin: Yeah. It's easy to push on one another's tender spots when we're in reaction, right?

[26:24] Brenda: Yes.

[26:26] Karin: And so learning how to be more responsive rather than reactive is going to be important. And I have a feeling that you have some tools to help people do that.

[26:36] Brenda: Yeah, I sure do. So what I could have done in that instance was not even pick up the phone. So if you feel that elevation or activation in your system and that might be anxiety or tension or just feeling busy or overwhelmed, a lot of times we're socialized that that means we need to do more and get busier and get faster. And that is our go to. I would invite you to slow it down and to maybe turn the notifications off on your phone and try and take some breaths so that you can regulate your own nervous system before trying to hold space for somebody else. Because one of the biggest things, I think, that causes rigid boundaries, in my experience, is when somebody is, like, at their threshold of capacity and they've just had it with either the person, the situation or so much other things that are going on in their lives that they don't have anything left but to snap or to set that really rigid wall. And so backing it up, slowing down, and building in capacity or admitting when we don't have capacity is really helpful.

[27:47] Karin: Yeah. And it also just reminds me that when we don't set those boundaries up front and we keep on feeling that violation over and over and over again, we're more likely to then come down really hard and have more of a rigid boundary.

[28:07] Brenda: Exactly. It's that resentment piece where you turn into the volcano and then you're like, and here's my boundary, because I've taken this for 25 years, and it's an invitation for us all to be reflective on the places that we are feeling resentment and then have a conversation outside of any kind of event or activation around that resentment.

[28:35] Karin: Yeah.

[28:36] Brenda: So the poorest boundaries are too weak. So a two week boundary would be a boundary that you still end up feeling like somebody's coming into you or taking advantage of you, or maybe that you've set the boundary, but you haven't been really firm around how much you mean it. So I'll give you an example of a porous boundary that happened yesterday for me. I have a 21 year old daughter who lives in Portland, and when I moved in, she asked me to save my boxes, and I said yes, that would be fine, but I need you to come get them really soon. So really soon is a great porous boundary because it was not well defined, and so really soon turned into three weeks. And then I realized yesterday when I was taking out the trash that I was stepping on the boxes. And so I felt that little ping of, OOH, I'm feeling irritated right now. And I thought, okay, this is really on me now, because I wasn't clear around what soon meant. It could be six months for a 21 year old when she gets around to wanting the boxes. So I texted her and said, I need you to come over after work tonight and grab these boxes if you would like them, because we agreed that you would pick them up soon. And soon has come and gone, and I need my garage back. If you don't want them, it's okay. I'll donate them, and you can just let me know what feels best. And she's like, oh, yeah, sure, I'll be over after work. And she came and picked them up. So a porous boundary is often something that's not well defined or that we haven't really told the whole truth about what we need.

[30:24] Karin: Okay, so it's not just that you're not enforcing the boundary, but it's really being clear. Not being clear really about the boundary.

[30:34] Brenda: Right. And to your point about boundary enforcement, that's key, because if we don't actually follow through with our boundaries, then people.

[30:48] Karin: Won'T respect them and they'll get used to. That right?

[30:52] Brenda: Absolutely.

[30:53] Karin: And it becomes more that you made a request, but it's really not a boundary.

[30:58] Brenda: Exactly. But then if you think about it from, I love to change the context. So if we change the context of, let's say it's you and a partner and you've asked for what you needed several times and it's not being heard, that would feel one way. When we're talking about boundaries, if we change the context to you and someone who works for you, an employee, and we look at that differently, someone who continues to not respect the things that you want them to do, you'd handle that situation very differently between you and the employee than you would between you and your partner. But healthy boundaries would say that you're able to maintain your own authenticity regardless of who you're in relationship with. And so if you're feeling that little ping of, oof, I'm being taken advantage of, or I'm not being clear, I don't think I'm being heard, it's a great opportunity to really follow through on our boundaries. And then we can circle it back to if it continues to be something that people aren't respecting, then that's called a boundary violation. And then we can institute some consequences.

[32:07] Karin: For that, and you bring up intimate partnerships. So what are your thoughts about establishing boundaries with them? Is that necessary in a relationship that is so close and that's such a set up?

[32:24] Brenda: It totally is. I think the closer the relationship, the more boundaries are needed. That would be my answer. And if you are in a relationship that's decades old and you've never set a boundary, it doesn't mean all is lost. And you can go in and say, honey, I'm learning about myself, and I'm learning about boundaries, and I'm going to be trying to set some boundaries. I might not be great at it at the beginning. I might be kind of clumsy. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but I haven't been able to really say to you what I'm thinking and needing, and I'm going to start trying.

[33:01] Karin: Oh, I love that. Those transparent conversations are so important, aren't they?

[33:08] Brenda: They really are.

[33:09] Karin: Yeah. So how do you help people who and I'm thinking about past clients and people I've talked with who have said things like, my dad is so controlling, and we have always let him do that, and I'm now an adult, and it just doesn't feel good. But I'm so afraid of how he would react if I said something because he is so used to this. How do you help people with that?

[33:39] Brenda: Well, I think that that's really common. First of all, know that you're not alone in that experience, because I know more people like that, that have these long standing relationships, especially with their family of origin, than I know people who have harmonious relationships with their families of origin. And so just knowing that you're not alone, that's a nice place to start. And then we're not going to change our adult senior citizen parents. We are not going to change them. The only thing we have capacity to change is how we react and what we allow. And so I would invite the person who says, this is a really tough situation for me, with me and my dad, to get really clear on what specific part of the situation isn't feeling good and then to be creative around what kinds of things you could do to feel better. So, for example, if you know that every time you call your parents or your dad or however that situation is, every time you call them, they offer unsolicited advice around everything in your life, it might be because I see that a lot in my clients, too. Yeah, it might be an opportunity to say, I'm calling to share my life with you, and I want to tell you these things because I like having you in my life. When you offer unsolicited advice and ick on my wow, it makes me not want to share things with you and just being really honest. And then maybe you have to end the conversation if they continue. And you can do it in a way that's not hanging up the phone and big drama. You can do it in a gentle way that says, I feel like this conversation is done. I'm going to go now. I love you. I'll see you next week, or I'll talk to you next week and just get off the phone and stop. And if it's a face to face conversation, that's a great opportunity for a little break in the action. And a break into action might be you go to the bathroom and you wash your hands for an extra long time just to kind of reset the energy. Give yourself time to think about a new topic that you're going to come out into the room with and then start the conversation with the new topic, if there's not one already in place. And so those little breaks can be super helpful.

[36:00] Karin: Yeah, and I love how gentle that is and kind. But it is really easy to, as adults, still feel like kids with our with our parents and fall into those old patterns, and it can take something to really stand up for our own needs with our parents.

[36:20] Brenda: It really can. Oh, it's hard. It's hard. I'm 50, and I still think about it when I have conversations with my family. And it took a while for me to realize if I didn't say what I really needed to say, that I was resisting calling them at all, and I didn't want to see them, and they matter to me. And so it was worth having the uncomfortable conversations. And I'll be honest, sometimes I still need to say, I don't feel good about this conversation. I'm going to go. I love you. I'll see you next week. Or I'll talk to you next week. And I think just giving ourselves permission to do that in any conversation is really powerful.

[37:01] Karin: So I think it's probably important to say that there are some situations where something else is needed. Yeah, like where it's really more abusive.

[37:14] Brenda: I love that you brought this up. I actually left an abusive marriage and moved into a domestic violence shelter in 2007. And so it's really confusing when you're in that situation because very often the people close to the abuser are telling you it's not abuse. The abuser is telling you it's not abuse. And so I invite people to get really curious around sensations that are going on in their body. Your body will tell you if this is more than just a boundary violation, and that'll come up as deep sadness, fear, anger. You will sense and know it. And we don't have to necessarily call something by a name for it to not be a match for us. And so if someone is repeatedly violating your boundaries, that is an invitation to get really curious around whether or not you want to be in relationship with that person.

[38:09] Karin: Yeah.

[38:10] Brenda: And if you wonder, is this really abuse? And what should I do? I invite you to go check out thehotline.org and it's just thehotline thehotline.org. And if you are in an abusive situation, it's really important to know that your computer could be monitored. So you might want to borrow someone else's phone. You might want to use a library computer and do those kind of things to keep yourself safe. But there's a ton of resources there, including one whole web page on is this abuse? And it has a lot of guidance and explanations and can be a really valuable resource for people.

[38:49] Karin: Thank you for that.

[38:50] Brenda: Yeah, you're welcome.

[38:52] Karin: If there's one thing that you would love people to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would that be?

[38:59] Brenda: I would love to talk about the power of the pause. And so the pause is where we literally stop the action to give ourselves time to choose what we want to do next so that we're not in that reactive state which you mentioned earlier. So when we pause, we're just taking a snapshot of time, and maybe it's only 3 seconds, and then we can say something to buy ourselves more time if we need it. So, for example, can we role play for a minute?

[39:38] Karin: Yeah.

[39:38] Brenda: Would you invite me to something? And then I'm going to pause and give you an answer to buy myself more time to think about it?

[39:47] Karin: Yeah. So there's this great band that's going to be playing out at Coyotes, and I've got this whole group of people that's going to go, you should come.

[39:58] Brenda: Oh, my gosh. Thank you for thinking of me. This sounds really fun. I need to check my calendar and get back to you. Can I connect with you later? This week. Sure. So just being excited, and no matter where the invitation or the request comes from, someone is thinking of you. But I will say this, this was actually the impetus to a lot of my boundary work. I'm still active in a professional organization for choral directors because I was a coral director for years and years, and they asked me to do a lot of things, and I like it. And so I typically say yes. But one time I said yes, and the person said so and so told me not to ask you, but I said, you say yes to everything. And so I decided we'd ask you. And I went, okay, it's time for me to say some no's.

[41:00] Karin: Yeah, sometimes we need something like that to shake us up a little bit so we can realize or recognize a pattern we're in, right?

[41:09] Brenda: Absolutely. So the power of the pause, and then I think our breath, it's accessible to all of us. Can I teach your listeners something?

[41:18] Karin: I would love that. I think that would be great.

[41:20] Brenda: Please. All right. So I'm going to teach you two things. I'm going to teach you a hand position and then a breath. And the hand position is something I call heart hug. It's also been called brain gym. But the basis behind it is that if we're in stress, our energy in our brain is in the reptilian brain, in the brain stem, which is really all about survival. If we can bring the vagus nerve back online and get our brain energy in the top of our brain, in the thinking brain, we are less reactive, and we can respond. And when we cross our right excuse me. When we cross our limbs, whether that's legs or arms, we're crossing our right and left brain meridians, which is a way that if we stay there long enough, we'll bring the energy back up into the thinking brain and bring that vagus nerve back online. So we're going to learn the heart hug, and then I'm going to teach you a breath that will immediately relieve anxiety. So we're going to breathe in through our nose and out through our mouth. Really long exhales, because there's a ton of science around the length of the exhale being tied to lower blood pressure, lower heart rate, lower stress hormones, and bringing the vagus nerve back online. So it's like a really power packed combination of the hand position and the breath. So the hand position, I'm going to teach it in steps just so that our listeners can understand what it is. So we're going to put two thumbs up and hold them out in front of us, and then we're going to turn two thumbs down, still holding out in front of us, open the hands so that they're flat and the backs of the hands are toward each other. And then cross the hands over the one over the other. Doesn't matter which then hold the hands. And now we're going to bring that whole hand held up in front of our heart. So we're kind of twisted. Yeah. And now we're going to take some breaths. Let's just take ten breaths. We're going to breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth. And I'll breathe with you, and I'll count. I'll tell you when we get to seven, and I'll tell you when we get to nine. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your general feeling state? Ten being I feel very, very awesome. I feel fantastic. And one being I feel lousy. How would you rate yourself right now?

[43:43] Karin: Right now I'm feeling pretty good because I love the connection, but I would say maybe an eight.

[43:52] Brenda: An eight?

[43:53] Karin: Yeah.

[43:53] Brenda: Awesome. That's good. I'm about an eight right now, too. I'm loving the connection, I'm loving the conversation. Feeling good. And let's add some breath to it. So let's begin. We'll breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth. Here we go. Last one. You it. So that took us about 10 seconds. And by the way, cats love breath work.

[45:20] Karin: You might be able to hear my cat in the background. He loves being with me, and he's on the other side.

[45:26] Brenda: So how do you feel?

[45:28] Karin: I feel good. Yeah. I can feel an uptick, probably more like a nine. Yeah.

[45:37] Brenda: And you can do this anytime, anywhere. And so you could go into the bathroom stall if you're at work, or you could go into the bathroom in your home if you've got little kids around and you need a break and a breather. Or you can sit at your desk and you can do this. And we just took ten breaths, ten conscious breaths, and we did the hand position, which gave us an added benefit of bringing our energy back up into our thinking brains. Although I don't think you and I were necessarily in our brain stems anyway, but if you are activated, it's a great thing to do.

[46:07] Karin: Yeah. And I think that when you're not feeling as well, there's a lot of room for improvement. And I've definitely noticed that when doing similar types of breath work, that it really does help to make me feel grounded and more calm.

[46:23] Brenda: Yeah. I love that you use breath work with your clients. How did you get started with breath work?

[46:28] Karin: Oh, gosh, that's a really good question. I think that I like to meditate and so just doing kind of some centering. I had started to do that. I used to do hypnosis a while ago, so it's always been a little bit a part of my work anyway. And then just recently, I've been more exposed to other people who are doing specifically doing breath work, and I've interviewed a couple of other people who focus on it, too. Yeah. I can't remember the specific source, but I've learned it from different places for sure.

[47:00] Brenda: I love that. I was an accidental user of breath work for like ten years before I got trained as a breath work facilitator. I'd been using it in my classroom with kids for more than a decade just because it's so natural for us.

[47:15] Karin: Yes. And actually I used to teach yoga calm talk about yoga at schools, so that was something I did a little bit as well. Yeah.

[47:23] Brenda: That's so cool.

[47:24] Karin: I'd love to ask you the question I ask all my guests, and that is what role does love play in the work that you do?

[47:32] Brenda: Love is center. I mean, everything I do is all about love and I mean universal love and love of humans and love of each other. And I just think that when we root love as the guiding light, everything goes more smoothly. And so for me, it is absolutely front and center.

[47:54] Karin: Wonderful. And how can people learn more about you and working with you?

[48:00] Brenda: I have a website and that is kind of my online home. It's Brendawinkle.com. It has whatever offer I'm working on for the month available. I usually do one free master class and breath work session a month and I'm really active on Instagram. Brenda Winkle. I offer usually once every other week I will go online and lead a 30 minutes breath work session and so come follow me over there and enjoy some free breath work. And I think that's probably the best two places is Instagram and my website just because my website has links to everything else, all the other platforms. And I'm a little bit active on LinkedIn, I'm a little bit active on TikTok, but not as consistent as great, great.

[48:46] Karin: Well, Brenda, this has been such a great conversation and you offered so much to our so I really, really appreciate it and look forward to getting together actually in person.

[49:01] Brenda: Yeah, Karin, thank you so much for having me and I also look forward to getting together in person. What a fortuitous event that we got to connect online and then we'll meet in person.

[49:12] Karin: Great, thank you.

Boundary Webinar Info:

Karin: After listening to this episode, if you feel like you could use some more boundaries in your life so that you and your relationships remain happy and strong, but you also feel like it's too hard to do without more support, I'm planning a webinar where I'm going to walk you through it. In addition to learning more about boundaries, you'll get the tools you need to learn what's getting in your way and how to feel more confident with setting boundaries. And I'm going to be using real life scenarios - and perhaps yours if you send me your story - to help you apply this to your own life. Even if you think you might be interested in something like this, send me an email. And my address is Karin...that's Karin with an i, @drcalde.com, and it's also in the show notes. And in the subject line, put “boundaries, please,” and I'll send you more information so there's no obligation at all if you send me that email. Thanks again for being here and bye for now.

Outro:

Karin: Thanks for joining us. Today on Love Is Us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm the Love and Connection Coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.